Trump could win presidency: Yes or No?

[PartSkeptic]

This is a popular right wing misrepresentation. The question from the panel was not about whether or not to prosecute climate change deniers. The question was whether the DoJ had considered an approach to fossil fuel similar to the Clinton administration's tackling of the the dubious claims, bad science, bald-faced lies and paid "scientific studies" of Big Tobacco. And the answer was (addressed to that specific point), "We've discussed it....".

Trump does deny climate change. Despite the overwhelming consensus in the scientific community.

Trump is not stupid, so why does he do it?

My guess is that he does not want a distraction from his planned economic reforms. He may reckon it can wait a few years. I have not seen any justification from him.

 

[Tony Stark]

A quick search:



Seems to support what I said!

So extremely vague statements are enough to fool you? And you just completely ignore the absolute fact that Trump says, on his own website, that he wants to give massive tax cuts to rich people (reduce top tax rate to 25% from 39.6%).

 

[PartSkeptic]

I would assert that the media cannot distort Trump's message any more than a fiddle can distort the fiddler's message. Trump has played the media from day one.

But, if you actually believe there are big-time distortions of Trump's ideas, can you give a few examples?

1.
"Ban all Muslims," shout the media.
"Ban all Muslims UNTIL we can figure out what the hell is going on."
Then Trump says he will be neutral toward the arabs in the Middle East. All other candidates are prepared to nuke them.
2.
"Trump is a racist" shout the media ad nauseum.
What statements has he made?
Referring to Mexicans negatively is not racist. It is the country they come from. And how many are in US jails for crime? Just where do you think the massive influx of drugs is coming through? Canada? He said there were probably some good ones.
3.
"Trump is anti-woman" say the media.
Trump made nasty remarks about Rosie O'Donnell. Check out who started it and her nasty remarks.
Megyn Kelly attacked Trump about his Rosie remarks. He attacked back by painting a picture of person with "blood-lust" to the point that blood was coming out of her ears and then tried to think where else and just ended with dismissive "where ever". If it was a man and he said "where-ever", what would be assumed? Trump does not get the benefit of the doubt.
Okay. Say he meant it. To extrapolate from two specific women to all women is a bit of a stretch.
4.
Media = He is broke and a bad businessman
Please!
5.
Media = He is a clown.
Nice suits, well-groomed, confident for a start...
6.
Media = Dumb (grandparents were Dumpf)
Beat the drum, the drum, the drum....
Many business interests. Has his own large plane.
7.
Media = He would start a nuclear war.
Why? Simply because he says he is unpredictable in a clever way?
8.
Media = The wall is a stupid idea.
Europe is building walls and fences. Israel has some really high ones.
The Great Wall of China helped. The Brits built a wall to keep out the Scots.
9.
Media - Un-presidential language
People are tired of PC.
And when provoked the other candidates (other than Bernie) tend to get nasty.
10.
Media = Trump would carpet bomb and kill women and children
And the US does not kill a large portion of women and children in its foray into Iraq and Afghanistan.
Russia bombed massively in Syria for 6 months and then pulled out. Syria might finally have some peace.
11.
Media = Trump favors torture for terrorists.
It has been unspoken military policy for a while. Who has been punished yet?
12.
Media = Trump denies global warming.
What is the US doing about it?. What is the US track record? how many scientists have been paid by big oil/coal to deny it?

Lastly - who reports the news and lets the viewer make up their minds?
How many opinion pieces use negative emotional words?

 

[Ladewig]

3 "Trump is anti-woman" say the media.
Trump made nasty remarks about Rosie O'Donnell. Check out who started it and her nasty remarks.
Megyn Kelly attacked Trump about his Rosie remarks.

If you consider Kelly's question during a debate to be an attack (a question that used Trump's own words), then our views of the world are so far apart that we cannot have a fruitful discussion.

4.
Media = He is broke and a bad businessman
Please!

I never heard this one about him being broke. Is this a popular cry from the media? It seems so easy to disprove that any media source making the claim would be ridiculed.

5.
Media = He is a clown.
Nice suits, well-groomed, confident for a start...

I think the people calling him a clown were referring to his comments and not to his appearance. Do you really think they were referring to his style of dress?

8.
Media = The wall is a stupid idea.
Europe is building walls and fences. Israel has some really high ones.
The Great Wall of China helped. The Brits built a wall to keep out the Scots.

LOLWUT? You just cited the Great Wall of China as a reason why Trump's wall should be taken seriously.

It is a stupid idea because (a) it is not cost effective and (b) it can be defeated by a ladder.

11.
Media = Trump favors torture for terrorists.
It has been unspoken military policy for a while. Who has been punished yet?

How is quoting his exact words a distortion of Trump's position?

12.
Media = Trump denies global warming.
What is the US doing about it?. What is the US track record? how many scientists have been paid by big oil/coal to deny it?

Trump has repeatedly called Climate Change a hoax by the Chinese.
Again, How is quoting his very words a distortion of his position?

Lastly - who reports the news and lets the viewer make up their minds?
How many opinion pieces use negative emotional words?

Yes. Emphatically yes. The media has been overtly and subtly trying to influence the public's perception of candidates from the very first presidential election. That is the nature of a free press in a country like America. Every single candidate in this race has been facing some sort of bias from at least one news source. But this complaint is typical Trump: he is treated the same way that everyone else is treated and then bellows about how unfairly he is being treated.

As for the nature of the problem, The best one can do is get one's news from enough different sources that many of the biases cancel out.

 

[PartSkeptic]

So extremely vague statements are enough to fool you? And you just completely ignore the absolute fact that Trump says, on his own website, that he wants to give massive tax cuts to rich people (reduce top tax rate to 25% from 39.6%).

I suppose you did not read this part.

"This plan also reduces or eliminates loopholes used by the very rich and special interests made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rates on individuals and companies."

or this

"Reducing or eliminating some corporate loopholes that cater to special interests, as well as deductions made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rate on corporations and business income. We will also phase in a reasonable cap on the deductibility of business interest expenses"

or this

"The death tax punishes families for achieving the American dream. Therefore, the Trump plan eliminates the death tax. "

The rich know how to abuse this one.

Do you know how complicated the US tax code is? And inefficient and wasteful?

New Zealand taxes every dollar of income even if some of it is social grants or pension income. Lump the lot and pay the percentage.

The tax codes favor the rich. Trump is looking to eliminate the loopholes.

Did you read about the Panama leak? The tax dodgers?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I suppose you did not read this part.

"This plan also reduces or eliminates loopholes used by the very rich and special interests made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rates on individuals and companies."

So, not all loopholes, then. Which, specifically? Surely his handlers have done the math and wouldn't mind us checking their work?

More to the point, in what world would someone who sees tax loopholes as currently necessary change their mind about them just by lowering the base rate? In what world would someone who sees them as unnecessary with a lower rate, not favor eliminating them now?

 

[lobosrul]

Media = The wall is a stupid idea.
Europe is building walls and fences. Israel has some really high ones.
The Great Wall of China helped. The Brits built a wall to keep out the Scots.

The underlined: actually the Romans built a wall to keep the Picts out (well maybe not even that really). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian's_Wall#Purpose_of_construction


I was going to argue against your political points, but.... nah the information on how wrong you are on most of them is out there already.

But I'll put these quotes out there:

"You take this little beautiful baby and you pump ... " he said, referring to mandatory childhood vaccines. "We had so many instances, people that work for me, just the other day, 2 years old, a beautiful child, went to have the vaccine and came back and a week later got a tremendous fever, got very, very sick, now is autistic." -Trump

"I am being proven right about massive vaccinations—the doctors lied. Save our children & their future." -Trump on twitter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-and-how-it-was-completely-debunked-eons-ago/

Either he's an anti-vaxxer, who are among the stupidest most uniformed people on the planet, or he's willing to pander to them. I noticed you have the word Skeptic in your handle, so I thought I'd make you aware of that Trump statement in case you weren't already.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

or he's willing to pander to them.

He'd pander to panhandling pandas if it pushed another penny in his pocket.

 

[PartSkeptic]

If you consider Kelly's question during a debate to be an attack (a question that used Trump's own words), then our views of the world are so far apart that we cannot have a fruitful discussion.

I googled "megyn kelly attacks trump" and got words like:

"unhinged attacks on Megyn"
"his extreme sick obsession"
"vitriolic attacks"
"verbal assault"

Not exactly unbiased commentary.

It tried to find out what she had said about Trump before the incident in the debate.

It seems she has a show on TV. Trump is a feature. I cannot find out what she may have said but I found a youtube video where she interviews Trump. She is aggressive. It seems she got his back up somehow but no-one seems to have followed up on what her shows might have said.

If he was not a public figure, and the media did not have so much latitude, many of these remarks are libel. With malice.

 

[PartSkeptic]

I think the people calling him a clown were referring to his comments and not to his appearance. Do you really think they were referring to his style of dress?

At all my visits to the circus, the clowns were outrageous dressed, and never spoke. They were mimes. And acted stupid. You make my point about inaccurate commentary using outrageous imagery.

 

[PartSkeptic]

LOLWUT? You just cited the Great Wall of China as a reason why Trump's wall should be taken seriously.

It is a stupid idea because (a) it is not cost effective and (b) it can be defeated by a ladder.

The length and size of the Great Wall shows what man can do. The US spends big money every year to keep illegals out. Does Mexico do their part?

The Israeli walls have never been breached as far as I know.

Try a ladder 8-10m high. Then what do you do on the other side? Jump?

BTW. There are many Trump proposals that I think are attention seeking, and deliberately so. It is the tone of the attack against him that indicates extreme bias.

 

[lobosrul]

The length and size of the Great Wall shows what man can do. The US spends big money every year to keep illegals out. Does Mexico do their part?

The Israeli walls have never been breached as far as I know.

The effectiveness of the Israeli West Bank barrier has been called into question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#Effectiveness

Then there is the fact that it is less then 200 miles long, in easy to reach locations near population centers. The US-Mexican border is nearly 2,000 miles long. Some of it in mountainous very remote areas. Which not only adds greatly to construction costs, it makes it difficult to properly patrol. What exactly will stop tunnelers?

Let me add that if we were facing continuous terrorist attacks from Mexico, I might be in favor of spending 10 billion or so on a wall. But we aren't.

Try a ladder 8-10m high. Then what do you do on the other side? Jump?

I dunno, maybe bring a rope ladder with them? (Trumps words!!!)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...an-impossible-impractical-symbol-of-fear.html

BTW. There are many Trump proposals that I think are attention seeking, and deliberately so. It is the tone of the attack against him that indicates extreme bias.

Do you ever actual listen to what Trump says?!? Maybe if he tones down his ugly rhetoric the media might tone down theirs. Actually, most times I hear broadcast media talk about him I wish they'd take their kid gloves off.

 

[PartSkeptic]

The underlined: actually the Romans built a wall to keep the Picts out (well maybe not even that really). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian's_Wall#Purpose_of_construction

"The Picts were a people of northern Scotland." I used the modern-day term.

Either he's an anti-vaxxer, who are among the stupidest most uniformed people on the planet, or he's willing to pander to them.

I read it that multiple vaccines are given in one lifetime dose.

Perhaps he is suggesting that spreading them out would be a better idea so as not to overwhelm the child's immune system. Does that make him a stupid anti-vaxxer!

Autism is on the rise. And so are auto-immune diseases. Our immune systems had to deal with thousands of viruses. That number has problem gone up by a factor of ten. (I am not sure of the exact figures).

I suppose I will have to research Trump's position and the vaccines further.

 

[Tony Stark]

I suppose you did not read this part.

"This plan also reduces or eliminates loopholes used by the very rich and special interests made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rates on individuals and companies."

or this

"Reducing or eliminating some corporate loopholes that cater to special interests, as well as deductions made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rate on corporations and business income. We will also phase in a reasonable cap on the deductibility of business interest expenses"

or this

"The death tax punishes families for achieving the American dream. Therefore, the Trump plan eliminates the death tax. "

The rich know how to abuse this one.

Do you know how complicated the US tax code is? And inefficient and wasteful?

New Zealand taxes every dollar of income even if some of it is social grants or pension income. Lump the lot and pay the percentage.

The tax codes favor the rich. Trump is looking to eliminate the loopholes.

Did you read about the Panama leak? The tax dodgers?

Trump is an outright liar.

Reducing the top tax rate from 39.6% to 25% would be a massive tax cut for the rich. It is literally not possible to offset a rate cut that big by reducing deductions/loopholes. Why do you think there are no details?

Also, eliminating the estate tax would ONLY benefit the rich given the fact that there is already a huge exemption (over $5 million).

 

[PartSkeptic]

The effectiveness of the Israeli West Bank barrier has been called into question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#Effectiveness

From your quoted article:
"in the areas where the barrier was complete, the number of hostile infiltrations has decreased to almost zero."

I dunno, maybe bring a rope ladder with them? (Trumps words!!!)

Where there is a will (wall ) there is a way. I think he is was appealing to emotions.

Do you ever actual listen to what Trump says?!? Maybe if he tones down his ugly rhetoric the media might tone down there's. Actually, most times I hear broadcast media talk about him I wish they'd take their kid gloves off.

Yes. I watch as much as I can of him and other candidates. Trump is an alpha male. A strong leader who causes strong emotions for and against.

 

[PartSkeptic]

I am going on a short break to the Game Park for a few days. Chat when I get back.

It could be said that the animals there are much more civilized than some of us. The alpha males dominate with strength and intelligence. And the females choose them.

 

[lobosrul]

From your quoted article:
"in the areas where the barrier was complete, the number of hostile infiltrations has decreased to almost zero."

Also: Other factors are also cited as causes for the decline. According to Haaretz, a 2006 report by the Shin Beit concluded that "[t]he fence does make it harder for them [terrorists]" but that attacks in 2005 decreased due to increased pursuing of Palestinian militants by the Israeli army and intelligence organizations, Hamas's increased political activity, and a truce among Palestinian militant groups in the Palestinian Territories. Haaretz reported, "[t]he security fence is no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it."[49] Former Israeli Secretary of Defence Moshe Arens says that the reduction in Palestinian violence is largely due to the IDF's entry into the West Bank in 2002.

 

[Ladewig]

I googled "megyn kelly attacks trump" and got words like:

"unhinged attacks on Megyn"
"his extreme sick obsession"
"vitriolic attacks"
"verbal assault"

Not exactly unbiased commentary.

What you have said is so laughably wrong I have to wonder if you are trying to pull our legs. We are talking about media bias against Trump and you are citing Google search results as evidence?

It tried to find out what she had said about Trump before the incident in the debate.

What the actual **** does that have to do with anything? Even if she previously accused him of being a serial killer asking him to explain his own words during a presidential debate is NOT an attack.

If he was not a public figure, and the media did not have so much latitude, many of these remarks are libel. With malice.

But he is a public figure! He is constantly bragging about his being a public figure. If he weren't so thin-skinned he wouldn't be howling about how unfair everything is.

Plus, we are left with the insurmountable absurdity of the original claim: the media is unfair to Trump. The media worships Trump, when he speaks they drop everything to cover him. His tweets get reported in real time. Trump plays the media all over the board. His cries of unfairness are merely meant to distract us from how much media coverage Trump gets for free.


..........
You know what? I'm done. Take the last word. Write a dozen posts or a hundred posts about how wonderful and clever and insightful Trump is and how unfairly he is being treated by the other candidates and the RNC and the media and the foreign media and the pollsters and everyone even remotely connected to the primaries.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

There were lots of die hard Hillary supporters that said the same thing in 2008. We all know how that turned out.

Yes, but Hillary supporters are generally older people who are more pragmatic. Even the 'diehards' will vote for whichever Democrat candidate wins the nomination because their top priority is to see a Democrat - any Democrat - in office. Bernie supporters are mostly idealistic younger people who may be stupid enough to stay home - or even vote for Trump - if they can't get their way.

Trump will sway voters once he has the nomination for the Republican party.

Correct. The majority of republicans will fall into line once he gets the nomination (assuming he doesn't get a bullet before then). But just getting the republican base won't be enough. he needs to get the 'independent' vote as well, and/or rely on democrats staying home and not voting. This is where disaffected Bernie supporters come in.

1.
"Ban all Muslims," shout the media.
"Ban all Muslims UNTIL we can figure out what the hell is going on."
Then Trump says he will be neutral toward the arabs in the Middle East.

2...

Excellent talking points and a good illustration of how spin affects people's perceptions. Right now the Media are ridiculing Trump because he is ripe for it. After the nomination this will change as things get more serious.

who reports the news and lets the viewer make up their minds?
How many opinion pieces use negative emotional words?

Exactly. We are being fed the narratives that the 'mainstream' media want us to believe - not raw facts that we can make our own minds up about.

But don't blame the media, they are just doing the best for their shareholders. Blame us for wanting opinion and emotion rather than facts.

 

[wasapi]

1.

3.
"Trump is anti-woman" say the media.
Trump made nasty remarks about Rosie O'Donnell. Check out who started it and her nasty remarks.

[/QUOTE

Wait . . . She "started it" . . . What, are we in grade school?

Oh, and the vaccination remarks . . .

I'm wondering what 'part' skeptic you are. I always thought being even part skeptical had to do with critical thinking.

Done here.