Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[dann]

Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility. I doubt very much an 18st man would ever condescend to join a team of ladies. There is a taboo against men appearing to be 'cissy'.

Few men would ever dream of presenting as female in any way. My ex- would fret if his t-shirt was too long as he didn't want anyone to think he was wearing 'a skirt'.

That is the kind of toxic masculinity/femininity that I suspect of playing a role in gender dysphoria.
I had a girlfriend who objected to my pink sleeveless shirt, the kind that is often called a wife beater, because people (!) might not find it sufficiently masculine.

Remember the mutually assured humiliation of Homer Simpson and Ned Flanders?

 

[GlennB]

Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility. I doubt very much an 18st man would ever condescend to join a team of ladies. There is a taboo against men appearing to be 'cissy'.

Then you haven't watched a scrum, ruck or maul in action. You haven't watched a big forward tackling a relatively lightweight back who's in full flight.

Relying on fear of being seen as 'cissy' misses the point entirely. 'What are we going to allow?' is the point that should be discussed.

 

[lionking]

Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility. I doubt very much an 18st man would ever condescend to join a team of ladies. There is a taboo against men appearing to be 'cissy'.

Few men would ever dream of presenting as female in any way. My ex- would fret if his t-shirt was too long as he didn't want anyone to think he was wearing 'a skirt'.

********. Don’t comment on things you know nothing about.

 

[Matthew Best]

Don’t comment on things you know nothing about.

I don't know if that's really fair on Vixen.

 

[Rolfe]

We seem to have returned to the suggestion, well, there are some transwomen who aren't a threat/pass well/are really needy. Can't we let these ones in?

Nobody has yet explained how, once you allow some males legal access to women's protected spaces and categories, you can keep any others out.

 

[Vixen]

That is the kind of toxic masculinity/femininity that I suspect of playing a role in gender dysphoria.
I had a girlfriend who objected to my pink sleeveless shirt, the kind that is often called a wife beater, because people (!) might not find it sufficiently masculine.

Remember the mutually assured humiliation of Homer Simpson and Ned Flanders?

One occasion that hit this issue home with me is when my ex-sister-in-law, who was a trans man lesbian in a relationship with an 'ordinary' lesbian invited my then husband and I to a k.d.lang concert at Wembley. I knew k.d.lang was a female gay icon but I was amazed at the cosplay in place amongst the audience, which was largely female (I'd guess at least, 80%):

• ex-sis-in-law was wearing a beautifully embroidered tuxedo, stylish haircut, male clothing
• her partner, her usual jeans and t-shirt
• almost all of the other members of the audience were in [lesbian] couples.
• These couples had one partner who looked decidely male (butch)
• and their partner decidely 'femme'.

I was not only shocked by the sheer 'coupledom' but also the parodying of heterosexual coupledom almost as a satire.

Of course one knows about sex roles but that was gobsmacking for me, tantamount to a culture shock. (Some of the 'femmes' were likely actual males.)

 

[theprestige]

I'm probably somewhere in between where you were at the start of this thread and where you say you are now.
I don't have absolute answers to your questions, cause I don't know. A couple months ago I had zero knowlege of this subject, and I certainly am no expert now.

But I think my question is pertinent--should the transmen whose photo I linked above (or transwomen if you prefer) be denied access to traditional male(female) spaces or positions simply because they were born in the 'other' biological sex?

The conversation about trans rights would be a lot different if it were actually about people who can successfully pass, to the point where nobody is even aware that social norms are being flouted. But it's not.

And like I said, I'm not interested in the question of "passing".

You (and most here) clearly think they should. I'm not so sure.

One thing you should be absolutely sure about is that I'm not interested in that question. Feel free to bring it up with anyone who is, but leave me out of it.

Which is why I think it's absurd when you ask me for reasoning of why dob is easier than sex determination. To me, it's patently obvious. Whether you think the DSD or intersex population is .1% or 2%--that implies a challenge to the binary sex assumption that just isn't present when you have a timer and watch a baby emerge from a womb. That's why there are several other whole threads devoted to these subjects. Along with gender and gender ID. And how that relates to policy and societal measures is a whole other subject.

So I see it as complex--not necessarily as "sex is a spectrum" but also not "Its Man and Woman and that's it, baby!"

Fair enough. I appreciate you satisfying my curiosity about what you actually meant by that claim about DOB. But as you say, there's whole other threads for debating that particular issue. Which isn't relevant to the central issues being discussed in this thread.

Issues having to do with male access to sex-segregated spaces for females, under the banner of trans rights. I'd much rather have your take on those issues, than more sidetracks and red herrings about passing and DSDs.

 

[theprestige]

We seem to have returned to the suggestion, well, there are some transwomen who aren't a threat/pass well/are really needy. Can't we let these ones in?

Nobody has yet explained how, once you allow some males legal access to women's protected spaces and categories, you can keep any others out.

And that's the one thing I came into this thread looking to see explained, and have yet to see explained.

 

[theprestige]

One occasion that hit this issue home with me is when my ex-sister-in-law, who was a trans man lesbian

The only way there's such a thing as a trans man lesbian is if trans, man, and lesbian have no useful meaning at all.

 

[Rolfe]

A butch lesbian who identified as a trans man, perhaps temporarily, given the past tense in the sentence? There are quite a few of them, many posting blogs about how they were consumed by internalised homophobia when they transitioned, now regret it profoundly (if they had non-reversible body modifications) and feel so much better having embraced their true sex and understanding that butch lesbianism is a perfectly cromulent way to be a woman.

 

[shuttlt]

A butch lesbian who identified as a trans man, perhaps temporarily, given the past tense in the sentence? There are quite a few of them, many posting blogs about how they were consumed by internalised homophobia when they transitioned, now regret it profoundly (if they had non-reversible body modifications) and feel so much better having embraced their true sex and understanding that butch lesbianism is a perfectly cromulent way to be a woman.

This is one of the weird things. Man and woman were not narrow words. I was just reading The Faerie Queene. There is room in that for a female knight, Britomart, who does all sorts of knightly stuff, while being unquestionably a woman. Once you start claiming all these other genders are necessary, you necessarily narrow people's idea of what "man" and "woman" means.

It's been a long while since I read the transcript of Joan of Arc's trial, but my recollection of that is that there is no suggestion that she isn't a woman. She is just a woman who claims God has told her to wear men's clothes and do manly things. The word "woman" was adequate to describe her without confusion or difficulty.

 

[Rolfe]

Brienne of Tarth, in Game of Thrones, too. She's not even a lesbian. Spends quite a bit of time carrying a torch first for a character who is gay (Renly?) and then for Jaime Lanister, whom she doesn't know is already taken.

In the Volsunga Saga we see Brynhild and Bekkhild, the former liking battle and warfare (although surprisingly turning out to be a whizz at embroidery too), the latter preferring to stay at home and be a traditional woman. Nobody thinks Brynhild is a man though. Least of all Sigurd. Or Gunnar.

When I was younger, adults told us we could be what we wanted to be, and our sex shouldn't dictate our life choices. Now, the slightest sign of a "wrong" toy preference and girls are being told they're really boys and need puberty blockers, testosterone and a mastectomy. It's horrific.

 

[shuttlt]

Brienne of Tarth, in Game of Thrones, too. She's not even a lesbian. Spends quite a bit of time carrying a torch first for a character who is gay (Renly?) and then for Jaime Lanister, whom she doesn't know is already taken.

In the Volsunga Saga we see Brynhild and Bekkhild, the former liking battle and warfare (although surprisingly turning out to be a whizz at embroidery too), the latter preferring to stay at home and be a traditional woman. Nobody thinks Brynhild is a man though. Least of all Sigurd. Or Gunnar.

When I was younger, adults told us we could be what we wanted to be, and our sex shouldn't dictate our life choices. Now, the slightest sign of a "wrong" toy preference and girls are being told they're really boys and need puberty blockers, testosterone and a mastectomy. It's horrific.

I was thinking about you saying something like this in the past as I wrote my last post. Clearly there were societal expectations on men and women, but you didn't stop being a man or a woman when you went outside them.

ETA: The Volsunga Saga is on my reading list. Is it any good?

 

[theprestige]

I have to say it's kind of refreshing to have someone in this thread who's willing to take a stand for traditional, stereotypical, regressive gender roles and expressions. For literally years now we've been asking the TRAs what exactly it means to "be a woman" and "be treated like a woman". Finally Vixen is here with an answer.

Of course it's a terrible, incoherent mess of an answer. Which is probably why most TRAs have wisely pretended not to hear the question.

 

[Rolfe]

I was thinking about you saying something like this in the past as I wrote my last post. Clearly there were societal expectations on men and women, but you didn't stop being a man or a woman when you went outside them.

ETA: The Volsunga Saga is on my reading list. Is it any good?

I think it's a cracker. Short, but packing in a great deal of action. A lot of the time the reader is left to imagine how the protagonists feel about what has happened while the story cracks on, but the characterisation is surprisingly sophisticated. Especially Sigurd, who is portrayed as this great hero, but there's something else going on there.

A family saga spanning six or seven generations in which everyone has in-law trouble. Dominated by three women all absolutely consumed by the desire for vengeance. (Well four if you count Borghild, but I'm not sure I do, she's not very interesting, why did Sigmund even marry her in the first place?)

 

[Rolfe]

Now, of course, the TRAs are transing all the gender nonconforming women from the past. From Miranda Barrie to Joan of Arc. All men, you know, because women couldn't possibly have done these things.

 

[theprestige]

Again and again we see that one of the core principles of trans rights activism is that men make the best women.

"Why can't a woman be more like a man?"

- Henry Higgins

"Hold my beer and pretend it's a cosmo."

- Darren Merager

 

[The Atheist]

What about contact sports? Is it okay for a male bodied transwoman boxer to beat up women?

That's my bottom line.

Put a pair of panties on Tyson Fury and let him legally kill some chick and you know what? The idiot pro-trans lobby would cheer.

Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility.

That's funny.

Protip: if you know absolutely nothing about a sport it's a good idea not to make idiotic comments about it.
_________________________

And a little more on the "trans" teacher with the big boobies:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ze-trans-teacher-huge-prosthetic-breasts.html

The Halton District School Board said it would be against the Ontario Human Rights Code to criticize Oakville Trafalgar High School teacher Kayla Lemieux

It's The Fail, so take it as you will.

 

[theprestige]

As I said. It's literally a hate crime to criticize a woman for having breasts, even if they are absurdly large.

 

[GlennB]

As I said. It's literally a hate crime to criticize a woman for having breasts, even if they are absurdly large.

They're so insanely huge I'm tempted to think that s/he's doing it as a protest of some kind.