Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Ziggurat]

Side note, I love how it's apparantly misogynist to get sarcastic

Sarcasm doesn't always come across as sarcasm to all readers. This is a regular problem with basically all internet forums, we aren't special here.

 

[JoeMorgue]

People argued that people asking for gay marriage were also asking for "new" rights.

Well again because what gay "is" can actually be explained in

A) A definition that remains consistent.
B) A definition that isn't just an already excepted term reworded and given new baggage but no new actual meaning.
C) It's just defining itself as correct.

Gay people told us what they wanted in a way that actually existed outside their own heads in the context of what they wanted society to actually DO outside of how they perceive and define them. They wanted to be able to legally have sex, relationships, and government recognition of their relationships equal to what heterosexual people have.

The very real problem is years of this I still have only the loosest grasp on what transgenders actually want that is actually something objective I'm supposed to do and I get way too much swarmy, insufferable "Tee hee we won't tell, we want you to guess" nonsense in trying to clarify it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well again because what gay "is" can actually be explained in

A) A definition that remains consistent.
B) A definition that isn't just an already excepted term reworded and given new baggage but no new actual meaning.
C) It's just defining itself as correct.

Gay people told us what they wanted in a way that actually existed outside their own heads in the context of what they wanted society to actually DO outside of how they perceive and define them. They wanted to be able to legally have sex, relationships, and government recognition of their relationships equal to what heterosexual people have.

The very real problem is years of this I still have only the loosest grasp on what transgenders actually want that is actually something objective I'm supposed to do and I get way too much swarmy, insufferable "Tee hee we won't tell, we want you to guess" nonsense in trying to clarify it.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that what transgender people want is somehow ambiguous.

There are entire countries where trans people have more or less got exactly what they wanted. It's written into law, it could not be more clear.

 

[Ziggurat]

Any of us upholding women's sports in this thread upset about this?

Nope.

My initial reaction was some slight concern for the transman

I still have concerns, but not because of the bout. Rather, I have a hard time thinking that long term use of enough hormones to make that transition happen aren't going to risk their long-term health. Allowing or prohibiting participation in the sport won't change that, though, and as an adult, it's not my place to dictate what risks Patricio can take with their own health.

but then I watched part of the bout. Holy crap, it is hard to believe that person was born a woman. But I've got no problem with it, and I can't imagine anybody else does.

Yeah, it's an impressive performance. But even with a win, they weren't blowing their competitor out of the water like transwomen competitors often do in women's sports.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm not sure where you get this notion that what transgender people want is somehow ambiguous.

Because I've been asking for years and haven't gotten an answer and I'm not perfect but I'm not THAT bad at asking questions.

Because I've asked, begged, screamed, threatened, bribed, and screeched for someone, anyone, to actually define the actual variable that changes when a cisperson becomes a transperson and I've gotten:

A) It's a vague and complicated spectrum that is both vague and complicated in how vague and complicated it is and I have no intention of every clarifying beyond that so shuttup and stop asking.
B) You're a bigot, shut up and stop asking.
C) Something that is just gender or sexual stereotypes reworded.

Here's how I know I at least have a valid point. I might not be right, hell I'm probably not, but I'm not just manifesting arguments out of my ass for hateful ***** and giggles here.

I know what transgenderism ISN'T way more then I know what it is. It's not crossdressing. It's not drag. It's not gender reassignment surgery. It's not hormonal treatment. Or at least it's dependent on any of those things. You don't have to look, dress, act like the other sex, you just have to say you're transgender.

Think I'm wrong? Fine. Tell me what transgender people have to do to be transgender that isn't just "claim the title of transgender."

You don't have to DO anything or intend to do anything to be trans other then announce that you are trans unless you do something bad at which point that doesn't count and now I've gone crosseyed.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yeah, it's an impressive performance. But even with a win, they weren't blowing their competitor out of the water like transwomen competitors often do in women's sports.

Sure that's not just confirmation bias?

The most direct comparison I can recall to this trans man boxer is the trans woman MMA fighter who had a short, unexceptional record before retiring.

As with every mainstream story covering Fox's tale, you don't get a sense of Fox's rightful place in the sport's hierarchy. The truth is, the only reason anyone beyond the most hardcore fans in Florida have ever heard of Fox is because of the controversy surrounding her transformation.

She was one of the opening acts on the regional level. Now 38 years old, with delusions of grandeur shattered by Ashlee Evans-Smith, it's likely that's all she'll ever be.

Fox's is a sad and compelling tale. I'm glad it's been told. I hope there's a happy ending. But, as I said last year, I don't want to hear about her again unless it's because of what she does, not who she is. That's the best way to embrace Fox—by treating her just like everybody else.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2038764-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-and-her-slowly-fading-fifteen-minutes-of-fame

 

[d4m10n]

You actually missed a big one I talked about above: romantic relationships. That's one of the biggest social sex segregations we have, and it happens every day. It doesn't get talked about much in this thread because government can't touch it.

I did allude to this issue in this post, where I mentioned "lesbian dating apps."

There are three main possibilities in play here:

1. Same-sex dating apps should not exist because of fundamentalism or some other socially conservative justification
2. Same-sex dating apps should not exist because they prioritize biological sex rather than gender identity
3. Same-sex dating apps should be broadly tolerated, without interference from either government regulators or grassroots efforts at cancellation (e.g. boycotting sponsors)

The first view is that of the sort of unreconstructed paleoconservatives who believe James Dobson^WP is a parenting guru.

The second view is that of the sort of social justice progressives such as the ACLU, who would argue that gender identity determines sex and that same-sex apps must be legally compelled to sort by gender identity rather than sex at birth, or else cease to operate.

The third view is my own, a sort of live-and-let-live philosophy.

Trans activists are primarily trying to tighten, not loosen, social controls.

Hence the proposed ban on dating apps which discriminate based on sex rather than identity.

 

[JoeMorgue]

/////

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again because we're back to my main point.

We can't short by sex anymore, we have to short by gender because we can't determine sex without a literal or metaphorical genital checks.

The data app shorts by sex. That gives us two options. The honor system or everyone is legally required to post a picture of their junk and one of those is pointless and the other is horrible.

 

[Matthew Best]

"short"?

I assumed you meant "sort" but then you said "short" three times and now I'm confused.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"short"?

I assumed you meant "sort" but then you said "short" three times and now I'm confused.

Yes I mean sort. Brainfart.

 

[d4m10n]

The honor system or everyone is legally required to post a picture of their junk and one of those is pointless and the other is horrible.

The complainant in Tickle v. Giggle was somehow clocked as male using only facial recognition.

That said, I think the honor system is probably just fine so long as devs are not legally prevented from asking users to honestly report their sex at birth.

 

[theprestige]

It sounds to me like if we could just get most people to agree on rules that don't require gender checks we could sidestep the whole thorny issue.

Most people aren't going to agree on rules that don't require sex checks (not gender checks, which are actually irrelevant) for things like sports and prisons. The thorny issue is essentially unavoidable. It needs to be confronted head-on.

My hope is that the public policy solutions for things like sports and prisons will inform public policy for things like shelters and locker rooms and representation.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Most people aren't going to agree on rules that don't require sex checks (not gender checks, which are actually irrelevant) for things like sports and prisons. The thorny issue is essentially unavoidable. It needs to be confronted head-on.

My hope is that the public policy solutions for things like sports and prisons will inform public policy for things like shelters and locker rooms and representation.

Is it really that thorny?

Generally speaking, everyone's gender is the same as their birth sex as a default, except for the small number of trans people who go through the process of having their gender changed in their records.

The situation is more ambiguous in localities that make getting recognition as a trans person very difficult, time consuming, or outright impossible, because then you end up with a bunch of people living in an unrecognized status. In places that make transgender recognition fairly straightforward and accessible, it's not really that unreasonable to just assume everyone's records are up to date and rely on that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The complainant in Tickle v. Giggle was somehow clocked as male using only facial recognition.

Well that involves another variable I haven't put on the table yet because I'm still finding the right way to word it.

Very, very few trans people are "passing."

Again I get it the whole "Oh so you're saying THIS person should be in the women's room? *Posts a picture of an extremely masculine transman who's obviously fully post-transition and has had a lot of work done*" is the cleverest thing evar to a lot of people in this discussion but that's not the case for most trans people. (Also a still picture is not a person existing in the real world.)

And that's the other paradox that is making this hard then we have to. In 99% of cases this isn't about "knowing" it's about... something akin to plausible deniability. We know you're a biological male/female, but we can all tell you're trying not to be.

So we're in this weird space of landing exactly at everyone knowing but nobody being allowed to bring it up.

Secondary sexual dimorphism characteristics DO exist. No these are not an exact science but they aren't just not there. Build, body hair, voice. In by far most people these exists that match up with your biological sex. These are hard to change WITH things like hormonal treatments and sexual reassignment surgeries, your "internal sense of gender subjective spectrum of my identity perception" sure as hell ain't going to do it.

 

[Ziggurat]

The most direct comparison I can recall to this trans man boxer is the trans woman MMA fighter who had a short, unexceptional record before retiring.

Fox was born in 1975, first started training in MMA in 2008 (32/33 years old), and first started competing in 2012 at age 36. A lot of MMA fighters retire around that age, and Fox just started. Yeah, Fox had an unremarkable career. But you cannot conclude from that that Fox had no significant advantage because of sex. Age was a huge factor in that case, and unless you propose to require transwomen athletes to be older in order to compete, then this hardly demonstrates any sort of level playing field.

 

[Lithrael]

Most people aren't going to agree on rules that don't require sex checks (not gender checks, which are actually irrelevant) for things like sports and prisons. The thorny issue is essentially unavoidable. It needs to be confronted head-on.

My hope is that the public policy solutions for things like sports and prisons will inform public policy for things like shelters and locker rooms and representation.

Oh, yeah, agreed there; I was talking about the semi-public space issues there and not the sport/prison/shelter ones.

I don't think "You get to be a woman, but only when we say so" is a solution worth putting on the table.

I'll officially throw in with the people saying I don't think there's any OTHER solution we can put on the table. It's just a question of exactly when we don't say so.

As to your other question, since the very beginning iirc, people have said 'just use whatever the requested name and pronouns and descriptors the person said is appropriate' and don't contradict any of that on purpose in y'all's social circles. They might WANT you to also actually believe they are whatever gender but nobody gets to dictate how someone else actually feels IMO.

What you are asking for as far as 'what is supposed to make it really true' imo is philosophy with no practical answer at all. It's a belief, full stop, there's nothing that makes it any more or less true that applies to the entire category. So of COURSE nobody can answer it.

Maybe in the future with some kind of sincerity-evaluating machine we could answer it, but not now.

And as far as the 'everyone can tell, you guys are just being obtuse' look yeah when people have clothes on I can tell a lot of the time but I can super not tell a lot of the time too, sure I am bad at clocking genders etc but I'm not making it up when I say that a good 10% of the time I would not bet money on my guess of what kind of sex organs somebody's got.

 

[Brainster]

Yeah, it's an impressive performance. But even with a win, they weren't blowing their competitor out of the water like transwomen competitors often do in women's sports.

And it seems safe to assume that the loser is not an elite men's boxer, unlike the female athletes getting beaten by transwomen.

 

[JoeMorgue]

We have levels of sports that aren't gender/sex based that still let people be the "best" at a certain subcategory.

The idea that without mens/womens sports there is just one continuous ranking where only one person can be "the best" doesn't ring true.

You can still be "the best" boxer in this weight class or this ranking or this division or whatever. I don't know if being "the best female boxer" is really all that important.

 

[Francesca R]

You can still be "the best" boxer in this weight class or this ranking or this division or whatever. I don't know if being "the best female boxer" is really all that important.

Yeah, the pure coincidence that the best one in every weight class, ranking, division or whatever was always male wouldn't matter at all.

But you making that comment now in a thread this long in the tooth has to be some kind of joke I think.