Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Ziggurat]

I dunno. Miles has apparently filed two other lawsuits. There's a decent chance we're talking about a grifter here.

And? I said bad things were happening. The law is ripe for abuse. Grifters are one way that it can be abused, and that's a bad outcome.

 

[Cain]

I mean, seriously, how can you explain "her" election in 2020?

New Hampshire's lower house is one of the most representative bodies in the world. It has something like 400 seats. It's often cited as a reason for an expansion of the US House of Representatives, which only has 435 seats (while France's National Assembly has almost 600 delegates, and the UK's Parliament has 650).

 

[lionking]

New Hampshire's lower house is one of the most representative bodies in the world. It has something like 400 seats. It's often cited as a reason for an expansion of the US House of Representatives, which only has 435 seats (while France's National Assembly has almost 600 delegates, and the UK's Parliament has 650).

400 people to govern a rather large suburb?

 

[Samson]

Former first trangender state representative in New Hampshire is busted for distributing child pornography. But I'm actually more interested in how this clown got elected. Get this background:

2008: Convicted of conspiracy to commit credit card fraud, a felony.
2012: Elected to New Hampshire legislature, but resigned before taking office when the felony conviction was reported.
Sometime around 2015: Sentenced to a six-month suspended sentence after reporting a bomb threat at a local hospital.
2020: Elected again to the New Hampshire state legislature.
2021: Arrested for sending false emergency texts to NH's E-911 center.
2022: Resigns from legislature after being arrested and accused of stalking and harassment.

I mean, seriously, how can you explain "her" election in 2020? Yes, it was probably a safe Democratic seat, but that begs the question, didn't the Democrats have anybody else they could run? Or was she the obvious candidate because of her position on the liberal stack?

It is intrepid reporting to manage to disclose Laughton to be a biological man.
In New Zealand that no longer happens.
Biological male but trans sex offenders against women remain mislabeled as women.

 

[mumblethrax]

Let’s just add crime statistics to the things you know little about. An increase in crime rates of any type has far more than one cause.

We're talking about a specific, identifiable event that people are claiming would certainly result in an increase in the rate of assaults.

This would be visible in crime data if it were true. Before we talk about what causes an increase in crime rates...is there such an increase?

 

[mumblethrax]

And? I said bad things were happening. The law is ripe for abuse. Grifters are one way that it can be abused, and that's a bad outcome.

It's a bad outcome if the grifters are successful, sure.

 

[d4m10n]

It's a bad outcome if the grifters are successful, sure.

Pretty sure it was a bad outcome for the natal females in the room, even if Miles is 100% sincere in their beliefs about gender identity.

 

[Francesca R]

By framing the prefix as an adjective, you are presenting the object of the adjective as being a valid representation of the thing in question. By using "trans woman" with the space, you are implicitly accepting and propagating the notion that males who identify psychologically as an alternative gender are legitimately and accurately described as "women". It directly implies that these males are women - just like any female is a woman. It creates the implicit message that transgender identified males ARE LITERALLY synonymous with females in all ways.

Well I am happy to correct your understanding of what I mean. Some other people who use the word doubtless do think that trans women are biologically women. I can't do much about that, but at least (I think) there is a common understanding about which set of people are being referred to with the term trans woman, even if there isn't agreement about whether those folks are female.

And by accepting misleading language into general usage, we are complicit in obscuring material reality and reifying a subjective aspect of faith.

It isn't misleading to me. Of course if anyone brings up the topic of trans women, you're not going to have any real idea about where on the policy debate or biology debate spectrum they are without interrogating their views a bit. I would accept that if someone refers to "trans identified male" then their views are probably clearer.

 

[mumblethrax]

Pretty sure it was a bad outcome for the natal females in the room, even if Miles is 100% sincere in their beliefs about gender identity.

If you're framing subjective distaste or discomfort as a bad outcome, sure. That's a Pandora's box in its own right.

But if the grift isn't successful the incentives aren't there.

In any case, this is pretty far removed from my "nothing bad has happened as a result" comment, which was made in the context of criminal acts in public bathrooms.

 

[Francesca R]

But nobody seems to take offense to the word transwoman.

Don't they? I think Emily's cat does, or at least, she doesn't use the term or seems to object to it, because she thinks it carries too much implication that trans women are female.

They take offense to the word ciswoman

The reason for being offended by this, or for objecting to it, is that some think it carries too much implication that cis women are not the only people who are female. Which is really the same objection as above

Is that hard to understand? I don't think so.

I don't object to, or get offended by either term BTW, but I probably have the same views in respect of whether TW are W as those who do/are.

 

[mumblethrax]

Don't they?

They don't seem to, at least not to the same degree. Emily's Cat didn't object to the use of the word transwoman, she objected to a space between trans and woman.

Is that hard to understand? I don't think so.

It's not hard to understand. It's just a bit difficult to take seriously, for the reasons already mentioned--our language doesn't work this way.

I mean we have the noun phrase "young women", which is specifically used when addressing girls. According to this reasoning, this implies that there are women who aren't adults. If somebody objected to this on the grounds that it normalized sexual relationships between "young women" and adults, since "women" are definitionally adults, how seriously am I obligated to take that argument?

When this was pointed out to Emily's Cat, she started quoting 1984 at me. To my mind, that's the sign of a school of thought that's gone seriously off the rails.

 

[Francesca R]

It's not hard to understand. It's just a bit difficult to take seriously, for the reasons already mentioned--our language doesn't work this way.

It's as easy to take seriously as the matter of what pronouns people want, and whether people object to terms like "transgender-identifying male" in place of trans woman. Do you find objections in respect of those a bit difficult to take seriously too?

how seriously am I obligated to take that argument?

You ain't obliged to take anything seriously. Wondering about any bias in what is serious and what isn't to you though . . . .

 

[mumblethrax]

It's as easy to take seriously as the matter of what pronouns people want, and whether people object to terms like "transgender-identifying male" in place of trans woman. Do you find objections in respect of those a bit difficult to take seriously too?

Depends on the objection. I tend to think the term is preferred specifically because it allows people to remind transwomen that they are male every time we talk about them, and possibly in mockery of the sense that preceded it (trans-identified male was originally coined to refer to transmen).

I think a sensible objection there would just be that it's impolite. My mother is undeniably old, but I don't remind her of that every time I talk to or about her.

You ain't obliged to take anything seriously.

Oh, I think I am, when there are serious arguments or interests at stake.

This isn't one of them.

 

[d4m10n]

If you're framing subjective distaste or discomfort as a bad outcome, sure.

Entire categories of sex crimes are based on subjective distaste and discomfort, such as voyeurism and indecent exposure. Not coincidentally, that's what we used to call it when someone with a penis deliberately disrobed in a room full of nude females.

But if the grift isn't successful the incentives aren't there.

By narrowly focusing on the possibility of grift, you are studiously avoiding the alternate possibility that Miles sincerely thinks of themselves as a woman and that their values and interests are genuinely at odds with those of the female patrons at the yoga studio.

You specifically asked for an NYC example, but seem unwilling to take it seriously now that you're seen one. Are you really trying to engage in good faith here?

 

[Francesca R]

Depends on the objection. I tend to think the term is preferred specifically because it allows people to remind transwomen that they are male every time we talk about them

I should think it is yes. Just like the term trans woman and the use of female pronouns and other language is probably preferred specifically in order to project the idea that transwomen are female, every time we talk about them. Do you agree on that?

Thus, both sets of preferences reflect the views of those who prefer them. What's the difference in respect of finding it difficult to take either preference seriously but not the other?

I think a sensible objection there would just be that it's impolite.

Why would your personal judgment about what is or is not polite be so special? Surely you can't expect others to take your declaration about that seriously?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You know this is a problem that has been created by the transgender push for fiat self-id, right?

We've had butch females using female spaces for well... longer than I've been alive. And it's only begun to be a problem when we could no longer trust that the people around us weren't also female.

You and your fellow advocates are the ones who broke that trust, and who have made females so fearful in female-only spaces that we now feel at risk from anyone who seems even slightly masculine.

The classic "why do you make me hit you" defence.

I would agree the current freakout about policing womanhood is certainly new, but obviously this is a result of reactionaries deciding to gin up a moral panic about trans people rather than any real danger.

Oh well, can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. A few cis women getting hit in the crossfire is a small price to pay for those who prioritize expressing anti-trans animus.

 

[lionking]

Oh well, can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. A few cis women getting hit in the crossfire is a small price to pay for those who prioritize expressing anti-trans animus.

Yup, pretty much the most misogynistic post I’ve seen in this long thread, and pretty much anywhere else for that matter.

Very, very well done.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yup, pretty much the most misogynistic post I’ve seen in this long thread, and pretty much anywhere else for that matter.

Very, very well done.

Bigots of a feather flock together, it's not shocking that those most ardently anti-trans are little disturbed by how their campaign to terrorize trans people is also negatively impacting cis women.

 

[lionking]

Bigots of a feather flock together, it's not shocking that those most ardently anti-trans are little disturbed by how their campaign to terrorize trans people is also negatively impacting cis women.

Here’s the thing. I’m not seeing me or anyone sharing my views celebrating the idea of transwomen being in the crossfire. You need to own what you say.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Here’s the thing. I’m not seeing me or anyone sharing my views celebrating the idea of transwomen being in the crossfire. You need to own what you say.

I'm curious, what exactly do you think is the solution here to this bathroom issue? Let's say the TERFs get everything they want, what does that look like in practice?

Document checks at every bathroom door, or just when someone who is "suspicious" gets challenged? How exactly can these spaces be policed without incurring collateral damage on non-stereotypically femme cis women?

A person dressed as a woman who's a bit tall and has broad shoulders walks into a women's bathroom, or a heavyset person with short hair in loose jeans and a hoodie sweatshirt does the same. What happens next?