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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

You are more trusting than me as I'd put it at 100% steal and have never left the money in the first place, also that $0.10 loss isn't a real thing as it's not poker.
The point of the example was not the accuracy of the numbers.
Priors matter. Is there any data regarding the males who choose to enter female spaces versus the transmales who choose to enter female spaces? Is there a difference in threat between the two groups?
Is there any way to distinguish between these two groups under self ID?

No, there isn't. So we need not separate them when evaluating self ID policies.
Stupid argument. On that basis if I had a starving family knocking on my door pleading for help, I would tell them to ◊◊◊◊ off as that costs nothing
If you don't care about other people, that's correct. If you do care about other people, that's not correct. It's up to you to decide whether or not you care about other people. But the argument is the same either way.

Not letting males into female spaces isn't equivalent, though, because they aren't going to starve. They will just use the male spaces for those same purposes instead.
 
How will you do that? Will you use violence? What does a woman do if he's being creepy and no one wants to help her?
The same thing she would do when there's no cops around or in a slow response time area under your theory. ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ deal with it. Policies are not much protection without an enforcer hanging around.
And how will you decide whether that guy really is being creepy, or she's just being transphobic? What even is the difference?
These random and vague hypothetical aren't much use. "Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth".
If you decide that the guy is being creepy and decide to use force and he resists, do you think the police even can stay out of it?
Sure. They have to catch you first. You seem to think the police are going to assemble a crack squad of Potty Police and are going to drop the rapes and murders to chase complaining pee-ers around. I don't think so. I think the claims will be ignored, or at least not pursued with any great fervor.
And what do you do if you think she's being transphobic, but another bystander thinks the guy's being creepy, or vice versa? Do the two of you fight it out? Just argue about it, with nothing being done? Do you come to the guy's rescue if you think he's being a docile trans identifying male but the other bystander thinks he's being creepy and tries to forcefully eject him? What if there's a whole crowd that tries to eject a docile trans identifying male, do you fight knowing you will lose? Leave him to their tender mercies (it's an expression)? Call the police?
Again with the vague hypotheticals. Any of the above, or variations thereof, may or may not go down. One way or the other, the situation is likely to temporaly resolve itself before Mr Policeman gets around to checking it out.
I don't think you've actually thought through what "self policing" means, or the problems that come along with it.
And you'd be wrong. Problems and unforseeables are always a liklihood. The biggest concern I have is with unexpected escalation to weapons. That's a bitch. Escalation to more bickering, I have dealt with without having to generate many complex advance theories. YMMV.

Bottom line is policy is dandy when it's enforceable on the fly. More often than not, it's not, IME. Most people bark a lot, and bite a lot less, so ya throws ya dice and do what you think is right, like you would with or without police backup.
 
Seriously:

Thermal thinks it's okay to use physical force to protect females, when he thinks he needs to mollify those of us who have noticed a documented increase in sexual harassment to females, arising from sex segregation overrides via self-ID.
If you have that long-requested data, I'd be honored if you would present it?
And Thermal thinks it's not okay to use physical force to protect females, when he thinks it too much undermines his baseline preference for self-ID as a humanitarian policy.
Let me know what I owe you for these spokesperson services, because I plan to contest the billing on competency grounds.
 
It's about as "correct" as me accusing you of doing a misogyny for valuing the feelings of males who profess to have a female gender over the safety and dignity of females who are actually somatically female. In other words, it's not.
If a male tells me they are female then I would tell them that they are not as we don't have that technology and they're talking bollocks. Start labeling all the private spaces according to biology and not gender man woman wishywashyness and things would be much clearer.
 
The same thing she would do when there's no cops around or in a slow response time area under your theory. ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ deal with it. Policies are not much protection without an enforcer hanging around.
But they are better when there is an enforcer available. Arguing against a policy that works sometimes on the basis that it doesn't work all the time is stupid when the alternative you're proposing is to basically work never.
These random and vague hypothetical aren't much use. "Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth".
Your constant appeals to violence are telling. Whether or not you even understand it, that's what your proposal amounts to: let individual violence settle the issue.

I consider that uncivilized and sub-optimal.
Sure. They have to catch you first.
And yet again, more lawlessness is the natural outcome of your preferred policy, by your own admission.
Again with the vague hypotheticals.
Make them less vague if you want. These are obvious issues, and you keep ducking them.
Any of the above, or variations thereof, may or may not go down.
Many of them are likely to go down. They're pretty basic scenarios. If you don't have any idea how to handle them, then you haven't actually thought about what your policy preference means when put into practice.
One way or the other, the situation is likely to temporaly resolve itself before Mr Policeman gets around to checking it out.
Often through violence.
And you'd be wrong. Problems and unforseeables are always a liklihood.
All the problems I described are very, very forseeable. I just foresaw them.
The biggest concern I have is with unexpected escalation to weapons. That's a bitch.
Indeed it is. Yet another reason to NOT just keep the cops out of it.
Bottom line is policy is dandy when it's enforceable on the fly. More often than not, it's not, IME. Most people bark a lot, and bite a lot less, so ya throws ya dice and do what you think is right, like you would with or without police backup.
I don't think you understand that in all these other conflict situations that you've dealt with, there WAS a legally correct answer to the conflict. Even in the absence of law enforcement to compel that answer, the fact that a legally correct answer exists still affects the actors in the conflict. Because even without cops on site, a legally incorrect resolution could still come back to bite the participants on the ass down the road. That helps constrain escalation, even if imperfectly.

What you seem to want is to remove any legally correct answer to the conflict. And you don't recognize how bad an idea that is. You can't understand how that could loosen those restraints on escalation. Because you haven't actually thought about these issues in any depth, even after all this time.
 
If you have that long-requested data, I'd be honored if you would present it?
Already has been (repeatedly) but you just handwave it away (repeatedly) using your standard handwaving picking list...
  • You're just cherry picking in order to vilify all people with transgender identities!
  • Those aren't real trans
  • They didn't identify as trans when they did that
  • It's legal for them to do that
  • That female made it up
  • That female engineered an encounter just so they could blow it out of proportion for clicks
(per @Emily's Cat with thanks)
 
If a male tells me they are female then I would tell them that they are not as we don't have that technology and they're talking bollocks. Start labeling all the private spaces according to biology and not gender man woman wishywashyness and things would be much clearer.
We've been over this before. You are wrong. The problem is not and has never been a lack of clarity in labels. Nobody who thinks trans identifying males should be able to enter a "women's bathroom" thinks that they should not be able to enter a "female's bathroom". Making that label switch will therefore have zero effect on what anyone thinks trans identifying males should or should not be able to do.
 
Already has been (repeatedly)...
Yeah, that's what I keep hearing. I just keep not seeing it.

One of the first things I asked when joining this discussion over a year ago was if there was any data about assaults on women in bathrooms, before or after open gender policies, or preferably both. You, personally, and a half dozen others chided me that it had been presented, and the burden was in me to catch up. After many requests (search was down and the thread was tens of thousands of posts long), you all said it was five pages back. I checked it, and the data had nothing whatsoever to do with restroom assaults.

That's been my experience with you guys. Lots of claims of what you have presented, and every word of it is pure bull ◊◊◊◊.
 
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We've been over this before. You are wrong. The problem is not and has never been a lack of clarity in labels. Nobody who thinks trans identifying males should be able to enter a "women's bathroom" thinks that they should not be able to enter a "female's bathroom". Making that label switch will therefore have zero effect on what anyone thinks trans identifying males should or should not be able to do.
I disagree as it's a lot easier to justify/argue about being a member of a label that is vaguely defined, versus being a member of a label that is clearly defined. You are wrong.
 
I disagree as it's a lot easier to justify/argue about being a member of a label that is vaguely defined, versus being a member of a label that is clearly defined. You are wrong.
You are deeply confused. The argument has never actually been about labels. Labels only serve as a proxy for the actual argument. The actual argument has always been about whether or not males who claim to be trans should be able to access female spaces. People may adjust their definitions to fit their conclusions on this issue, but NOBODY adjust their conclusion to fit the labels used. You will not find anybody who actually thinks that way. You will not find anyone who thinks it's OK for trans identifying males to enter a "women's bathroom" but not a "female bathroom". That is entirely a figment of your imagination.
 
You are deeply confused. The argument has never actually been about labels. Labels only serve as a proxy for the actual argument. The actual argument has always been about whether or not males who claim to be trans should be able to access female spaces. People may adjust their definitions to fit their conclusions on this issue, but NOBODY adjust their conclusion to fit the labels used. You will not find anybody who actually thinks that way. You will not find anyone who thinks it's OK for trans identifying males to enter a "women's bathroom" but not a "female bathroom". That is entirely a figment of your imagination.
Do your maths thing, is my statement incorrect?
 
The same thing she would do when there's no cops around or in a slow response time area under your theory. ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ deal with it. Policies are not much protection without an enforcer hanging around.

These random and vague hypothetical aren't much use. "Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth".

Sure. They have to catch you first. You seem to think the police are going to assemble a crack squad of Potty Police and are going to drop the rapes and murders to chase complaining pee-ers around. I don't think so. I think the claims will be ignored, or at least not pursued with any great fervor.

Again with the vague hypotheticals. Any of the above, or variations thereof, may or may not go down. One way or the other, the situation is likely to temporaly resolve itself before Mr Policeman gets around to checking it out.

And you'd be wrong. Problems and unforseeables are always a liklihood. The biggest concern I have is with unexpected escalation to weapons. That's a bitch. Escalation to more bickering, I have dealt with without having to generate many complex advance theories. YMMV.

Bottom line is policy is dandy when it's enforceable on the fly. More often than not, it's not, IME. Most people bark a lot, and bite a lot less, so ya throws ya dice and do what you think is right, like you would with or without police backup.
What gibberish is this?

Policy "enforceable on the fly"? I've seen plenty of trespassing videos. The process is simple:
  1. Tell the person to leave.
  2. If they don't, call the cops.
  3. When the cops arrive, trespass the person.
  4. If the person refuses to leave after being trespassed in front of law enforcement, the person gets arrested and charged, and the justice system grinds forward from there.
At no point does anyone throw up their hands and say, well this policy is just not working in the moment. All that's required for this kind of enforcement is that the establishment has the legal right to trespass people, and the entitlement to rely on law enforcement for help if the person does not leave peacefully.

All we're asking for in the case of private restrooms is that establishments be given the legal right to deny access by self-ID, and to trespass people with law enforcement assistance if they try to gain access anyway.

All we're asking for in the case of public restrooms is that this segregation be the government policy, with the attendant guarantee of law enforcement assistance if people try to violate the policy.

This kind of enforcement happens all the time, works all the time. You're the only one who thinks it's somehow magically a non-starter. Everyone else on the planet knows that it works.
 
I disagree as it's a lot easier to justify/argue about being a member of a label that is vaguely defined, versus being a member of a label that is clearly defined. You are wrong.
The vagueness is manufactured by trans privilege activists, who have a vested interest in trying to make a simple thing seem as complicated as possible.

And we've been over this before. Clarifying the label doesn't change their behavior or demands. It just prompts them to give their language another Orwellian turn of the screw.
 
What gibberish is this?

Policy "enforceable on the fly"? I've seen plenty of trespassing videos. The process is simple:
  1. Tell the person to leave.
  2. If they don't, call the cops.
  3. When the cops arrive, trespass the person.
  4. If the person refuses to leave after being trespassed in front of law enforcement, the person gets arrested and charged, and the justice system grinds forward from there.
Now think hard: how long is a bathroom visit, compared to average police response times, assuming they prioritize this at all?

I recall someone on this forum saying that we need guns for self defense because police are minutes away and you only have seconds. Ring any bells?
This kind of enforcement happens all the time, works all the time. You're the only one who thinks it's somehow magically a non-starter. Everyone else on the planet knows that it works.
Because I am aware of how often a cop is around when fast moving things happen. They bat cleanup after the dust has settled, or more often there was no dust to start with and they just drag it out till someone gets bored and leaves. Cut out the middleman and cut to the chase.

If a cop is around, you're not in much danger of assault from anyone, generally. If a cop is not around during a three minute dispute, you're on your own, generally.

When did all these bootstrap conservatives suddenly want government all up in their business?
 
FAFO wasn't a thing back then but I nonetheless applied!
The specific words change, but FAFO has been around for a long time. In recent history, it's conceptually identical to "Don't start ◊◊◊◊ and there won't be ◊◊◊◊". A bit older, and that's pretty much the meaning behind "don't tread on me". Arguably, it's the same philosophy behind "molon labe".

At heart, it's a position of strong defense: We won't start it, but we will absolutely end it.
 
As we saw in the recent Planet Fitness case, sometimes it's quite long.
Soooo many jokes here...

If you want to return to the PF story, I'm in. The young lady wasnt overly bothered by a guy in there, or being made 'uncomfortable' any more than people are made uncomfortable around others every day. When Captain Pud Puller went to work, she sounded the alarm. The 'violence advocates' took it from there. Self policing at its finest, and I haven't heard of any repeat performances by our intrepid solo artist. Seems the social pressure worked just dandy? And no cops involved. That's my ideal, and you found a comprehensive example in the wild, but didn't realize it.
Conservatives have always wanted government to enforce their property rights. What are you even talking about?
What I said. Personal responsibility and handling your own affairs are generally preferable to government intervention and interpersonal management.
 
Bottom line is policy is dandy when it's enforceable on the fly. More often than not, it's not, IME. Most people bark a lot, and bite a lot less, so ya throws ya dice and do what you think is right, like you would with or without police backup.
Well this is simply not true. Do you think that SEC regulations, tax codes, and even construction codes are worthless policies? Those aren't enforceable on the fly - in fact MOST of our laws and regulations aren't enforceable on the fly. What policy does is allow redress of violations in court.

If the policy is strict sex-based separation in all intimate spaces (including restrooms), nobody is expecting cops to be standing guard at every space. That would be irrational. What it does allow, however, is for a female to 1) make a complaint and be in the right for it and 2) seek redress when the policy is violated.

Right now, in CA for example, the legal policy is on the side of the male in female spaces - females have no avenue of redress. I would like that to change.
 
This isn't even about trans identity, privilege, or policy anymore. Thermal needs a whole other thread just to discuss his concept of basic law enforcement.

How police enforce laws, and whether law enforcement is even worthwhile, is very much not the topic of this thread.
 

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