Translation. Or not.

[Chaos]

When I was at university, I wrote an essay on some of the Alice illustrations (Carroll's own, Tenniel, Rackham, a few Swedish illustrators, and the ones by Tove Jansson of Moomin fame), and I read several Swedish translations at that time. There are some, particularly by authors of children's books, that are really quite excellent! The thing is, they are definitely not text book translations, the authors take far greater liberties with the text, though with very good results - they seem quite faithful to the original, since they capture the spirit of it, even though not always the letter.

I don´t know the Alice translations, but to me, the absolute pinnacle of good translation is the various Asterix comic books. Are you familiar with them?

 

[Helen]

I'm hopeless at learning foreign languages. With that said, I've always wondered at poetry translations. How can it even be possible? Oh, the rhyming and meter part is easy enough, but how do you possibly translate the beautiful use of language. It seems barely possible for another world class poet. Maybe. But I can't imagine, say, a Shakespeare play translated. All you would have left is a story.

It's a big reason I've never deeply read world literature, despite my love for it. So many books just seem a bit flat, and I have to assume it's the translation. But I read for language as much as for anything, so anything rather prosaic had better have a lot of other virtues to get me to read it. The few poetry translations I've tried just left me cold.

I have seen some excellent translations of poetry. Only they aren't. Not translations that is, they are interpretations. And they are, as you say, always by other poets... So I think you are right, it's not really possible. However, another good poet, with the right insight and skills, can make something of it, and sometimes capture the spirit, if not the letter, completely

And we have in fact several good Shakespeare translations in Swedish - really quite good, that capture quite a lot of the original. We also have the added bonus of being able to have modern translations, making it easier for modern audiences to understand what it is all about. I'm not saying the original isn't better, of course it is, but they are good enough. And that's not bad

I don´t know the Alice translations, but to me, the absolute pinnacle of good translation is the various Asterix comic books. Are you familiar with them?

I used to love Asterix, and have read a few of the Swedish translations, which I think weren't bad. Perhaps I should have a look again - good idea, thanks!

 

[MRC_Hans]

Inte jag heller. Är du snäll och översätter?



This. From a Dane. It takes longer for little Danish children to start understanding what their parents are saying, than for any other children in the world! And you complain about Swedish...


Oystein (Öystein?): I agree, I am so grateful to translators, who make it possible for me to read authors in languages I don't know (and sometimes in languages I should know). But I have no idea how they do it

I notice that you have corrected his post. In YOUR version, it is Swedish. The original post was not.

No, Danish kids don't take longer, neither do Chinese kids. In fact, judging from that, there are no difficult languages, since they can all be understood and spoken, even by little kids.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

What's that little word that appears in German - doch? What do you do with that?

Off my head, the best translation is 'still' in the meaning 'after all'-

Except, of course in "Was machst do doch?" which means "whatever are you doing?".

But this is a good example of why word to word translation simply won't do.

Interestingly, the word exists in Danish as well, with approximately the same meaning (but we spell it 'dog').


Hans

 

[Helen]

I notice that you have corrected his post. In YOUR version, it is Swedish. The original post was not.

No, Danish kids don't take longer, neither do Chinese kids. In fact, judging from that, there are no difficult languages, since they can all be understood and spoken, even by little kids.

Hans

That's really strange - I just quoted Plumjam, and it came out right. Mysterious I wish this would happen to my own posts as well.

There are studies by Danish scientists, Dorthe Bleses among others, which show that Danish kids begin to understand their parents a little later than children of other nationalities. This is of course not due to any greater inherent difficulties in Danish at all (no language is more difficult to learn to a native speaker), but may possibly have something to do with the fact that maybe Danes in general tend to slur their words a little more than others. At least that is the explanation Dorthe Bleses gave when I heard her lecture on this.
http://www.sdu.dk/ansat/bleses.aspx
www.liu.se/content/1/c6/15/30/10/Kompletterande fakta090908.doc
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article361242.ab

Off my head, the best translation is 'still' in the meaning 'after all'-

Except, of course in "Was machst do doch?" which means "whatever are you doing?".

But this is a good example of why word to word translation simply won't do.

Interestingly, the word exists in Danish as well, with approximately the same meaning (but we spell it 'dog').


Hans

And we have "dock" in Swedish, which I think is almost the same as "dog", though there may be diffrences. As there always are I think perhaps it has a more formal feel in Swedish, more archaic, even, and is less in use.

Danish and Swedish, and Norwegian, are very similar. Which makes translation all the more full of possible pitfalls and difficulties But interesting!

 

[Morrigan]

Do you translate fiction, Helen?

I love translating fiction (English to French or even vice-versa), as a hobby. I also enjoy translating other kinds of stuff (such as scientific articles for instance), but I'm not a professional, and unfortunately all the job openings are for boring legal, governmental or technical documents. So I kind of gave up pursuing that career before I even tried to...

 

[Helen]

Do you translate fiction, Helen?

I love translating fiction (English to French or even vice-versa), as a hobby. I also enjoy translating other kinds of stuff (such as scientific articles for instance), but I'm not a professional, and unfortunately all the job openings are for boring legal, governmental or technical documents. So I kind of gave up pursuing that career before I even tried to...

I'm not sure whether I do, or don't... I've been offerd fiction lately, but may have to wait a while (my mother is very ill, and I don't think I'll do much work of any kind in the forseeable future).

When I started working after university, in the dim and distant past, I translated some fiction, but then I stumbled into a completely different line of work. Like you, I've done it ever since for fun - can't read a book in one of my languages (didn't that sound grandiose) without trying out translations every now and then. I translate a lot of fairly boring stuff for a living, and have done so as part of most of my jobs. I'd love to try fiction for a while, but as I've said: I don't know if anyone would be willing to wait while I dither over each sentence for a month or two

Have you never thought of giving it a go, maybe offer one or two of your translations to a publisher? It might be worth a try, what with your excellent English.

 

[HawaiiBigSis]

In Swedish, whey is a word based in the old rural society, a word with both feet (or however many feet whey has) on the ground. It conjures up pictures of flaxen haired, sturdy girls on the hill farms, calling in their cows for milking. A no nonsense word, a word for everyday use.

That's actually the image I get (and I'm an American-English only kinda gal). I imagine looked up whey in a dictionary the first time I questioned it. I do remember my mother not being sure of the meaning, so the solution lay in the book of words.

Why would that not be the appropriate image and feeling in the Miss Muffet context?

Would not the context of the word needing translation give you a clue if you were to look at the history of the word, or how it was used in the past?

The value of language is in part its ability to provide a wealth of implication, so instead of trying to translate I prefer to provide context of what was implied by that phrase or word choice or reference.

One of the things I loved most about reading Chaucer and Shakespeare (and other old time writer guys) was that words had somewhat different meanings when originally chosen, and it helps understand the history of a word or the word helps understand history to know how it was used in the past. (Okay, I know that was a bit convoluted, but do you get my drift?)

So while the core meaning retains the same (expression of uncertainty), the contextual usage makes its meaning dramatically different (from uncertainty leaning towards the affirmative to uncertainty leaning towards the negative).

There isn't any other word that implies negative in the construction of the sentences? It's been a while since I've read the play, and perhaps the version you're reading has been translated back and forth. Wasn't it originally written in French -- and a few hundred years ago?

 

[svenax]

Translating poetry - impossibly impossible

Cool thread!

This is a slight derail, I hope you all won't mind.

I have worked a bit with translating documentation for computer programs. That's of course usually really simple, since almost all terms have a 1-to-1 translation into whatever the target language might be. But this talk about translating poetry made me think of an interesting thing I've encountered.

When I started studying German, way back in 8th grade, we sang a few songs - one of them the German translation of a Swedish song by our famous 18th century poet Carl Michael Bellman. Since I actually knew the Swedish text from before, I realised that the German version was really, really different and I found that quite interesting. Way later, something made me think of this again and I went hunting the internet for that German translation. Well, I found it, and another German translation too that was radically different, and also a bit closer to the Swedish original. Cool, so I hunted down an English translation as well, which also took a different approach.

Here's the original:

När jag har en plåt at dricka,
Nota bene godt renskt vin,
Och därtil en vacker flicka,
Nota bene som är min;
Är jag nöjd af hjertans grund,
Nota bene blott en stund.

Ja vår tid är alt för härlig,
Nota bene litet svår,
Ovän uppå blod begärlig,
Och förtjensten slagen går,
Mången tror sig fri och säll,
Nota bene bagatell!

Lät då alt sin cirkel löpa,
Men dock Nota bene håll;
Ålderdomen ej må stöpa
Om min sköna till ett troll.
Vin och skönhet mig uprör,
Nota bene tils jag dör.

This is the German translation I learnt way back. It seems to take a much more comical approach than the original.

Holt mir Wein aus vollen Krügen,
notabene, Wein vom Sundgau,
und ein Weib soll bei mir liegen,
notabene, eine Jungfrau.
Ewig hängt sie mir am Munde,
notabene, eine Stunde.

Ach, das Leben lebt sich lyrisch,
notabene, wenn man jung ist,
und es duftet so verführ'risch,
notabene, wenn's kein Dung ist.
Ach, wie leicht wird hier erreicht doch,
notabene, ein vielleicht noch.

Laß die Erde heiß sich drehen,
notabene, bis sie kalt ist,
deine Liebste sollst du sehen,
notabene, wenn sie alt ist.
Lache, saufe, hure, trabe,
notabene, bis zum Grabe.

This is the German translation that I found only recently. It is much closer to the gist of the Swedish original, or so it seems to me.

Hab ich Geld genug zum Trinken,
Nota bene, Wein vom Rheine,
Und ein schönes Kind zur Linken,
Nota bene, die die Meine;
Herzensfroh bin ich im Grunde -
Nota bene, nur 'ne Stunde.

Fast zu schön sind unsre Tage,
Nota bene, bis aufs Blut
quält mich arger Neider Plage
So verlier ich Hab und Gut.
Mancher fühlt sich dann befreit,
Nota bene, Kleinigkeit!

Mag der Kreis sich wieder schliessen.
Nota bene, haltet ein!
Meine Schöne darf im Alter
Nicht zum Troll verwandelt sein.
Wein und Schönheit mich erregen,
Bis zum, N.B., letzten Segen.

And here's an English translation that actually uses pretty much the same wording as the original.

When there's money for a tipple,
Nota bene: Rhenish wine!
And my hand around her nipple,
Notabene: which is mine!
Happiness is in my heart,
Notabene: till we part.

Yes, the times are all too merry,
Nota bene: not the best!
Scoundrels want my blood to bury
And the money's running fast.
Some feel free and safe from hell,
Nota bene: bagatelle!

Let it all complete its gyre,
Nota bene: make it stall!
Age shall not convert the fire
Of my girl to a troll.
Wine and beauty make me fly,
Nota bene: till I die.

So, why did I post this? Well, I was hoping that some one might find it as cool as I did. And I was also wondering if anyone out there knows of translations of this particular song into other languages. Also, perhaps who made that first German translation.

 

[Helen]

That's actually the image I get (and I'm an American-English only kinda gal). I imagine looked up whey in a dictionary the first time I questioned it. I do remember my mother not being sure of the meaning, so the solution lay in the book of words.

Why would that not be the appropriate image and feeling in the Miss Muffet context?

Would not the context of the word needing translation give you a clue if you were to look at the history of the word, or how it was used in the past?


One of the things I loved most about reading Chaucer and Shakespeare (and other old time writer guys) was that words had somewhat different meanings when originally chosen, and it helps understand the history of a word or the word helps understand history to know how it was used in the past. (Okay, I know that was a bit convoluted, but do you get my drift?)

Well, my problem isn't really understanding the words (although that may certainly happen as well), but more that I'm not always able to convey all that the word may denote in the original - there may be perfectly valid translations, but the feel of the word, the associations it brings, may, as it were, be lost in translation...

Oh, I may well be exaggerating this, but it is interesting to see how different a word may feel in different languages, however much a dicitionary might claim that they are one and the same. So it is a bit of a problem. But is is also part of what I find so incredibly interesting. But it does make me a very tardy translator at times

@svenax: Thank you for those examples, they illustrate exactly what I am talking about - they are all, as far as I can tell, perfectly acceptable translations of the original, but they are incredibly different... I think the English one is very close to capturing the feel of Bellman.

 

[HawaiiBigSis]

... but the feel of the word, the associations it brings, may, as it were, be lost in translation...

That actually is what I was trying to convey in my random mumblings.

Sometimes words (at least in English, and I have no reason to believe it's different in other languages) have come from various sources, and it's the secondary/ tertiary/ alternative meanings/ history and past usage that may convey the connotation needed.

Or not. Since I am not a translator, it's not really something I've ever given a lot of thought to, but I have struggled to find the exact word I want, and often find that additional meanings (as provided by a dictionary or thesaurus) help.

 

[Leif Roar]

Well, my problem isn't really understanding the words (although that may certainly happen as well), but more that I'm not always able to convey all that the word may denote in the original - there may be perfectly valid translations, but the feel of the word, the associations it brings, may, as it were, be lost in translation...

Like, say, how to translate Astrid Lindgren's use of "negerkung" in Pippi Långstrump into current English. The technical translation is trivial (well, trivial-ish), but the "image painted by the word" turns alien and wrong.

 

[Helen]

That actually is what I was trying to convey in my random mumblings.

Sometimes words (at least in English, and I have no reason to believe it's different in other languages) have come from various sources, and it's the secondary/ tertiary/ alternative meanings/ history and past usage that may convey the connotation needed.

Or not. Since I am not a translator, it's not really something I've ever given a lot of thought to, but I have struggled to find the exact word I want, and often find that additional meanings (as provided by a dictionary or thesaurus) help.

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing, only differently. See??? Communication is impossible But so much fun.

Like, say, how to translate Astrid Lindgren's use of "negerkung" in Pippi Långstrump into current English. The technical translation is trivial (well, trivial-ish), but the "image painted by the word" turns alien and wrong.

I don't even want to think about translating that word

 

[MRC_Hans]

Well, my problem isn't really understanding the words (although that may certainly happen as well), but more that I'm not always able to convey all that the word may denote in the original - there may be perfectly valid translations, but the feel of the word, the associations it brings, may, as it were, be lost in translation...

Oh, I may well be exaggerating this, but it is interesting to see how different a word may feel in different languages, however much a dicitionary might claim that they are one and the same. So it is a bit of a problem. But is is also part of what I find so incredibly interesting. But it does make me a very tardy translator at times

Sounds as if you're a VERY good, albeit possibly slow, translator.

Exxcept when translating, where it may be a drag, the fine nuances words and their meanings in different contexts is what I find very fascinating in languages. Unfortunately, a normal person only gets to master a few languages well enough to appreciate this. - Which brings me to a defence for translation:

While the original language will always be preferable for those who really master it, those who have even a limited knowledge (not to mention none at all) of that language may well be better off with a good, though imperfect, translation.

That said, I have sometimes encountered books where the translation (from English) was so poor that I sort of had to translate parts back to English and would then think "ahh, that's what it was supposed to say"

Hans

 

[Leif Roar]

I don't even want to think about translating that word

NRK Radio modernised it to "sydhavskonge" in a recent radio adaption, which I think was a good choice. (Although it doesn't quite work in English. "South Sea king" doesn't have the same sound to it.)

 

[six7s]

You think flaxen, Roboramma thinks Miss Muffet. What is a poor girl to do?

Parlez une ne vérité pas au derrière et considérez l'Angleterre

 

[Helen]

Exxcept when translating, where it may be a drag, the fine nuances words and their meanings in different contexts is what I find very fascinating in languages. Unfortunately, a normal person only gets to master a few languages well enough to appreciate this. - Which brings me to a defence for translation:

While the original language will always be preferable for those who really master it, those who have even a limited knowledge (not to mention none at all) of that language may well be better off with a good, though imperfect, translation.

That said, I have sometimes encountered books where the translation (from English) was so poor that I sort of had to translate parts back to English and would then think "ahh, that's what it was supposed to say"

Hans

I very much agree with all of the above; not least about the endless fascination there is to be found in words and languages. And translations are a boon to humanity! There are so many great writers I would have missed out on, without them, so it's good that most tranlators are able to do work at a reasonable pace, and still do an excellent job

As for the bad ones, I too have encountered translations where I had to guess at the original to make any sense of it at all. I was once stranded on a desert island (no I wasn't, it was Crete, but that doesn't sound as wildly romantic) and had run out of books, so I picked up something another tourist had left. It was a translation fron English to Swedish, and I had to recreate the English original in my mind before it was understandable. Shouldn't have wasted my time really, it was still bad, but it saved me from reading the backs of the cereal packages, at least.

NRK Radio modernised it to "sydhavskonge" in a recent radio adaption, which I think was a good choice. (Although it doesn't quite work in English. "South Sea king" doesn't have the same sound to it.)

A good translation, though, because that's what he really was, after all. But you're right, it doesn't have the same feel to it at all. In Swedish, it would have to be kung av en söderhavsö, and that's really cumbersome. But perhaps a little less troublesome

 

[MRC_Hans]

Shouldn't have wasted my time really, it was still bad, but it saved me from reading the backs of the cereal packages, at least.

Well, anything is better than the backs Greek cereal packages, but why read at all in Crete? There is so much to be seen, there.

A good translation, though, because that's what he really was, after all. But you're right, it doesn't have the same feel to it at all. In Swedish, it would have to be kung av en söderhavsö, and that's really cumbersome. But perhaps a little less troublesome

Certainly, one should detach from the 'neger' part, both because of the current connotations, and because neither he nor his subjects were negroes, in the modern sense of the word. I was thinking about the word 'chieftain', there is a certain pondus to that, perhaps 'south sea chieftain'.

Hans

 

[Helen]

Well, anything is better than the backs Greek cereal packages, but why read at all in Crete? There is so much to be seen, there.



Certainly, one should detach from the 'neger' part, both because of the current connotations, and because neither he nor his subjects were negroes, in the modern sense of the word. I was thinking about the word 'chieftain', there is a certain pondus to that, perhaps 'south sea chieftain'.

Hans

You always need to read. Even in Crete. You may do it in between the trekking and the swimming, or in between the Minoan palace visiting and the wine drinking in restaurants at night. But you always need to read!

Chieftain is a good suggestion, and if I remember correctly she called him hövding from time to time, as well as kung, so chieftain would be right. But there will always be something missing, there is a certain story book feel, something exotic and spledid and magical, to negerkung that is really difficult to recapture today.

Quibbles...But fun quibbles!

 

[HawaiiBigSis]

Certainly, one should detach from the 'neger' part, both because of the current connotations, and because neither he nor his subjects were negroes, in the modern sense of the word. I was thinking about the word 'chieftain', there is a certain pondus to that, perhaps 'south sea chieftain'.

Isn't there a sense in the word neger that means "black"? My understanding always was that he had very dark skin, and American connotations aside, it seemed very accurately descriptive. But maybe I'm just missing something; I am rather difficult to offend.