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Translation. Or not.

I don't really think it's polite to talk about the spread, wide or otherwise, of middle aged ladies:blush:
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Nothing wrong with middle age - I remember it well. :)
 
Helen said:
Well, I culd make a passable effort at Swedish, since we have the words (probably stole the concepts directly from Germany), although I would spend a few hours contemplating the words in German, especially the very specific feelings heimat conjures up.
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It seems that capturing the "specific feelings" a word conjures is a big issue for you, but I think you might be making a false assumption about words universally conjuring a single feeling to native speakers, and also words failing to conjure that for non-native speakers.

I don't speak a single word of Swedish, but when I think of the word whey, its "feeling" is much in line with what you described. I didn't even think of Little Miss Muffett until you pointed it out.
 
Helen said:
Let me give you a recent example, that I spent a ridiculous amount of time pondering: Whey. seems straightforward enough, doesn't it? Oh no, No, no, no. No such thing as a straighforward word.

In Swedish, whey is a word based in the old rural society, a word with both feet (or however many feet whey has) on the ground. It conjures up pictures of flaxen haired, sturdy girls on the hill farms, calling in their cows for milking. A no nonsense word, a word for everyday use.

Some of that may be true for the English word as well, though perhaps it is not quite so flaxen. But then there is another, quite different feel to it, since there is that little Miss Muffet nursery rhyme echo. And suddenly the words are worlds apart, and the one could not possibly be exchanged for the other.
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The main association these days is probably to protein shakes and bodybuilders.
 
gumboot said:
I didn't even think of Little Miss Muffett until you pointed it out.
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Little Miss Muffett was the first thing that came to my mind. Which actually sort of makes your point: we're all different.

Which actually sort of makes Helen's point. :P
 
Translation...the great gift, the great challenge, the great game. Sometimes translating English to english is a challenge--my daughter is starting to read Mary Poppins, the Jungle Books, and the Narnia series. I am teaching her to read them 'in English' instead of trying to translate them into modern american english. The value of language is in part its ability to provide a wealth of implication, so instead of trying to translate I prefer to provide context of what was implied by that phrase or word choice or reference.

For what value you may place on it, Helen, I find your English to be extraordinarily good, so I suspect your translation skills are the same. That little Language Award shows I'm not the only one in that camp, either!

Regards, MK
 
Elena, ¡qué lástima! You're right, context and connotation are twin bears. I know when I was reading Name of the Rose and Foucault's Pendulum that I was at least as fascinated by the skill of Eco's translator as I was by Eco's talent as a writer. I had no feeling with either book that I was reading a translation from another language.


Helen said:
Plumjam, doesn't translating at least fairly similar languages make it a bit extra confusing at times? I know what trying to juggle Danish, Norwegian and Swedish does to me:blush:
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You should have seen what I did to a couple of Latin tests the year I decided it would be fun to take Latin in the middle of completing my Spanish major! :o
 
Elizabeth I said:
You should have seen what I did to a couple of Latin tests the year I decided it would be fun to take Latin in the middle of completing my Spanish major! :o
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Delirant isti romani - und nicht nur die!
 
Miss_Kitt said:
Translation...the great gift, the great challenge, the great game. Sometimes translating English to english is a challenge
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Ack! Tell me about it.

I'm currently rehearsing a play set in the 18th C called "The School For Scandal", and have come across "doubt".

According to Etymology the word - indicating uncertainty, or being of two minds - has retained the same meaning since the early 13th C.

Yet, in context, the meaning has very much reversed from the time of the play. In the play, when "doubt" is used, it always indicates something akin to "I probably think".

In contrast, in modern usage the word is more accurately translated as "I probably think not".

Thus while the word expressed uncertainty, there is in each instance an implication that one way or the other is right. For example if you say;

JOHN: Kate is attracted to me.
MARK: I doubt that.

It's understood that Mark is not just saying "I am uncertain of the truth of that" but is in fact saying "I am uncertain of the truth of that but don't think it's true".

In 18th C speak he would instead be saying "I am uncertain of the truth of that but think it is true".

So while the core meaning retains the same (expression of uncertainty), the contextual usage makes its meaning dramatically different (from uncertainty leaning towards the affirmative to uncertainty leaning towards the negative).

Quite interesting.
 
Elizabeth I said:
Elena, ¡qué lástima! You're right, context and connotation are twin bears. I know when I was reading Name of the Rose and Foucault's Pendulum that I was at least as fascinated by the skill of Eco's translator as I was by Eco's talent as a writer. I had no feeling with either book that I was reading a translation from another language.
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Something similar happened when I started reading in Spanish novels by the Portuguese Jose Saramago. It wasn't because of the similitude between Portuguese and Spanish, the beauty of the prose was there. Later, I learned that Saramago's translator into Spanish is his Spanish wife: Pilar del Rio. Perhaps the closeness of their souls and spiritual affinity allows them to share the same sensitivity.

I know I'm being over-romantic here. But it is a nice myth that I enjoy.
 
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gumboot said:
It seems that capturing the "specific feelings" a word conjures is a big issue for you, but I think you might be making a false assumption about words universally conjuring a single feeling to native speakers, and also words failing to conjure that for non-native speakers.

I don't speak a single word of Swedish, but when I think of the word whey, its "feeling" is much in line with what you described. I didn't even think of Little Miss Muffett until you pointed it out.
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Exactly what I was trying to say (but probaly failed while ranting:p) - it's impossible! Every individual has different experiences, and bring their own interpretations to every word...

You think flaxen, Roboramma thinks Miss Muffet. What is a poor girl to do?
Roboramma said:
Little Miss Muffett was the first thing that came to my mind. Which actually sort of makes your point: we're all different.

Which actually sort of makes Helen's point. :P
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Miss_Kitt said:
Translation...the great gift, the great challenge, the great game. Sometimes translating English to english is a challenge--my daughter is starting to read Mary Poppins, the Jungle Books, and the Narnia series. I am teaching her to read them 'in English' instead of trying to translate them into modern american english. The value of language is in part its ability to provide a wealth of implication, so instead of trying to translate I prefer to provide context of what was implied by that phrase or word choice or reference.

For what value you may place on it, Helen, I find your English to be extraordinarily good, so I suspect your translation skills are the same. That little Language Award shows I'm not the only one in that camp, either!

Regards, MK
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Interesting, Miss Kitt, I have been thinking about that variation on translation too. I was for a short time involved in producing easy reading for people with various disabilities. I found it even harder than ordinary translation at times; how do you manage that, without depleting the language completely?

And the praise is praise indeed, coming from someone with your writing skills. Thank you!

Elizabeth I said:
Elena, ¡qué lástima! You're right, context and connotation are twin bears. I know when I was reading Name of the Rose and Foucault's Pendulum that I was at least as fascinated by the skill of Eco's translator as I was by Eco's talent as a writer. I had no feeling with either book that I was reading a translation from another language.
o
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Agree with every word about Eco; I've read the English translation, rather than the Swedish, of his books (since my smattering of Italian doesn't take me further than the headlines in a newsaper, at the most), and I also have the feeling that it is very close to the original - I've been to a few of Eco's lectures, and the "sound" of the translations seems very similar to that.
 
LibraryLady said:
Have you ever looked at the translations of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland? Some are amazing.
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When I was at university, I wrote an essay on some of the Alice illustrations (Carroll's own, Tenniel, Rackham, a few Swedish illustrators, and the ones by Tove Jansson of Moomin fame), and I read several Swedish translations at that time. There are some, particularly by authors of children's books, that are really quite excellent! The thing is, they are definitely not text book translations, the authors take far greater liberties with the text, though with very good results - they seem quite faithful to the original, since they capture the spirit of it, even though not always the letter.

This is so interesting!

You know, I may have been exaggerating a bit in the OP:blush: Perhaps it is not impossible to translate a text. But thinking about it at this level does bring up som really interesting problems. I somtimes wish I could be a theoretical translator, who just sits around and muses on the question of languages...

I've been thinking about heimat, since Rat brought it up, and it is a good illustration of a typical difficulty. There is a word in Swedish, hembygd, which is the exact translation. Only it isn't. Heimat is weighted down by the Nazi undertones, and hembygd doesn't carry any such baggage with it. So it's often impossible to use, even if it is in some ways the perfect translation.

There, you see? Theoretical translator, that's the way forward for me:p
 
yomero said:
Something similar happened when I started reading in Spanish novels by the Portuguese Jose Saramago. It wasn't because of the similitude between Portuguese and Spanish, the beauty of the prose was there. Later, I learned that Saramago's translator into Spanish is his Spanish wife: Pilar del Rio. Perhaps the closeness of their souls and spiritual affinity allows them to share the same sensitivity.

I know I'm being over-romantic here. But it is a nice myth that I enjoy.
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But I do not think it is just a myth, I think you can get so used to an author, whether by reading or by knowing the person, that you capture (for want of a better word) the soul of their work.

Lothian said:
I am contaminetly oblinderated by the fact that so many posters do not have English as an intertreaninal language yet follow the contabulisms and don’t get bambiflected by obstriphident words.
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Oh, come on, admitterade, you are justicially comfabulactioning glossarifications now!
 
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Helen said:
Exactly what I was trying to say (but probaly failed while ranting:p) - it's impossible! Every individual has different experiences, and bring their own interpretations to every word...

You think flaxen, Roboramma thinks Miss Muffet. What is a poor girl to do?

I just *hate* to do this to you but I thought of 'whey-faced'.

A fascinating discussion and my points have already been made by others. Very pleased that you are such a thoughtful and subtle translator. There should be more like you.

I would like to leave you with this helpful quotation:

'I find it quite a help in translation to understand the text, sir; I always prefer it'. From Post Captain, by Patrick O'Brian who was no mean translator from French to English himself.
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jenspen said:
I would like to leave you with this helpful quotation:

'I find it quite a help in translation to understand the text, sir; I always prefer it'. From Post Captain, by Patrick O'Brian who was no mean translator from French to English himself.
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Understand the text... Now why didn't I think of that;)
Thank you! I love it.
 
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I'm hopeless at learning foreign languages. With that said, I've always wondered at poetry translations. How can it even be possible? Oh, the rhyming and meter part is easy enough, but how do you possibly translate the beautiful use of language. It seems barely possible for another world class poet. Maybe. But I can't imagine, say, a Shakespeare play translated. All you would have left is a story.

It's a big reason I've never deeply read world literature, despite my love for it. So many books just seem a bit flat, and I have to assume it's the translation. But I read for language as much as for anything, so anything rather prosaic had better have a lot of other virtues to get me to read it. The few poetry translations I've tried just left me cold.
 
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