Transgender man gives birth

[DragonLady]

Seriously, I don't know, how much time? What sort of locker room are you talking about?

Let's assume a male locker room with showers, where people of all the sexes and genders gather to shower, and change.

Let's assume our typical female-shaped college student, of either gender.

Let's assume their going to walk from the front door to their car an hour after dark.

Anyone want to calculate the odds they can do that with no unsolicited sexually overt behavior from any other patron?

How many times can that happen before a police report of some kind will need to be filed?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Let's assume a male locker room with showers, where people of all the sexes and genders gather to shower, and change.

Let's assume our typical female-shaped college student, of either gender.

Let's assume their going to walk from the front door to their car an hour after dark.

Anyone want to calculate the odds they can do that with no unsolicited sexually overt behavior from any other patron?

How many times can that happen before a police report of some kind will need to be filed?

I'm constantly astounded that this presentation seems to suggest "...and so the woman needs to alter their behavior."

How about the sexual predator change theirs. How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males. Even if the conclusion is the behavior is negative, that presupposition creates a sort of "I couldn't help it" rationalization.

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[DragonLady]

How about the sexual predator change theirs

Sure. Because we know they all follow instructions so well.

While we're at it, instead of teaching children to look both ways and be watchful of traffic, we can teach people in cars not to run over children in the roadway.

 

[Roboramma]

I'm constantly astounded that this presentation seems to suggest "...and so the woman needs to alter their behavior."

How about the sexual predator change theirs. How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males. Even if the conclusion is the behavior is negative, that presupposition creates a sort of "I couldn't help it" rationalization.

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Rape is already illegal. We are, hopefully, already doing everything we can to prevent and deter the behaviour of sexual predators.

In some cases all that we can still isn't enough, and so some guidelines on the behaviour of potential victims seems reasonable.

Is that outrageous?

 

[DragonLady]

How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males.

I have no idea now what behavior to expect from males.

In fact, I no longer know who is male, and I'm no longer allowed to ask.

2500 years of cultural evolution has been cut off at the knees to allow a tiny minority to put their comforts and desires before everyone else's. Seems like a very male thing to do to my eyes, but who knows?

2500 years of language evolution cut off at the knees as we can no longer communicate meaningfully for fear of being non-politically-correct according to the standard of the moment -which just keeps getting narrower.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I have no idea now what behavior to expect from males.

In fact, I no longer know who is male, and I'm no longer allowed to ask.

2500 years of cultural evolution has been cut off at the knees to allow a tiny minority to put their comforts and desires before everyone else's. Seems like a very male thing to do to my eyes, but who knows?

2500 years of language evolution cut off at the knees as we can no longer communicate meaningfully for fear of being non-politically-correct according to the standard of the moment -which just keeps getting narrower.

Why do you need to know who is male?

Nothing has been cut off. It's not like we got to a perfect point of society and "evolution" stopped. There has always been change. And there has always been someone digging their heels in out of misplaced fear.

Evolution doesn't mean things get better either. It is just change.

In what way can't you communicate meaningfully? That extra "Which title do you prefer?" somehow destroys all words?

 

[DreamingNaiad]

And why specifically 2500 years?

 

[DragonLady]

Why do you need to know who is male?

The very fact you need to ask that illustrates what I'm saying.

"Attention, everyone, we're looking for a person in a t-shirt and jeans who just went into the lobby with a gun. If it anyone sees them, please contact security."

Right.

Male or female? (oh yeah; not allowed to ask)

Race? (oh yeah; not PC)

Normal, or mentally ill? (oh yeah; no PC)

So...now we're either leery of every person in a tee shirt and jeans, or we're not leery of anyone 'til we see the gun.

Which version leaves fewer victims when the maniac starts shooting?

Do the think the final body count might be higher if the suspect is a disabled white man in a chair who wheeled into the lobby but the announcer couldn't figure out how to say that without risking a mob attacking them for the language they've used?

Because that is what happens: the actual process of discussion is constantly bogged down and derailed by the choices of words people use in their attempts to communicate now, so that no actual communication or genuine problem-solving takes place in a reasonable time frame.

 

[Belz...]

Also, the very few trans people I know would never undress in front of anyone, because of the rather high likelyhood they'd be assaulted for being different

How high is said likelihood? Do we even know?

 

[sylvan8798]

Let's assume a male locker room with showers, where people of all the sexes and genders gather to shower, and change.

Let's assume our typical female-shaped college student, of either gender.

Let's assume their going to walk from the front door to their car an hour after dark.

Anyone want to calculate the odds they can do that with no unsolicited sexually overt behavior from any other patron?

How many times can that happen before a police report of some kind will need to be filed?

I don't understand what the locker room has to do with the walk across the parking lot. Are they walking naked? Did they forget their clothes in the locker room?

 

[sylvan8798]

The very fact you need to ask that illustrates what I'm saying.

"Attention, everyone, we're looking for a person in a t-shirt and jeans who just went into the lobby with a gun. If it anyone sees them, please contact security."

Right.

Male or female? (oh yeah; not allowed to ask)

So should people not even be PERMITTED to be transgender? Or are we adding to the argument that they should be considerate enough to stay locked in their homes in order to avoid confusing others in addition to not causing them discomfort in the public bathrooms?

 

[DragonLady]

I don't understand what the locker room has to do with the walk across the parking lot. Are they walking naked? Did they forget their clothes in the locker room?

Right.

Because kidnappers, rapists, and their ilk never, ever choose a target, then wait for them to move to a more isolated area before attacking. Never. Really.

Right; because kidnappers, rapists,and their ilk only attack people who are naked. By simply wearing clothes, we can all avoid being victims, into perpetuity.

 

[DragonLady]

So should people not even be PERMITTED to be transgender? Or are we adding to the argument that they should be considerate enough to stay locked in their homes in order to avoid confusing others in addition to not causing them discomfort in the public bathrooms?

Is that what my post was about? Or are you mischaracterizing me again?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Rape is already illegal. We are, hopefully, already doing everything we can to prevent and deter the behaviour of sexual predators.

In some cases all that we can still isn't enough, and so some guidelines on the behaviour of potential victims seems reasonable.

Is that outrageous?

I disagree we're doing all we can when we tell the victim to change because telling the predator to won't work.

It's a defeatist attitude.

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[DreamingNaiad]

The very fact you need to ask that illustrates what I'm saying.

"Attention, everyone, we're looking for a person in a t-shirt and jeans who just went into the lobby with a gun. If it anyone sees them, please contact security."

Right.

Male or female? (oh yeah; not allowed to ask)

Race? (oh yeah; not PC)

Normal, or mentally ill? (oh yeah; no PC)

So...now we're either leery of every person in a tee shirt and jeans, or we're not leery of anyone 'til we see the gun.

Which version leaves fewer victims when the maniac starts shooting?

Do the think the final body count might be higher if the suspect is a disabled white man in a chair who wheeled into the lobby but the announcer couldn't figure out how to say that without risking a mob attacking them for the language they've used?

Because that is what happens: the actual process of discussion is constantly bogged down and derailed by the choices of words people use in their attempts to communicate now, so that no actual communication or genuine problem-solving takes place in a reasonable time frame.

When did I say you could never consider someones gender?

I was only asking because knowing seems to be extremely important to you. You have already been told that it is ok to ask if you are not sure.

Never in my puff have I been in a situation where my very survival has been dependent on knowing if there is a penis nearby. Gender is irrelevant to me. Like height.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the police can't give actual factual descriptions of suspects. That is a new one for me.

 

[Roboramma]

I disagree we're doing all we can when we tell the victim to change because telling the predator to won't work.

It's a defeatist attitude.

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I said that we should do all we can to change the behaviour of the predator first. Having done that, we may find that the problem still exists to some extent (as is the case with rape). Living in the real world and still wanting to do more, we also tell the potential victim about steps that can be taken to mitigate risk.

I did not suggest that telling the predator to change is useless. Particularly I think that there are many things we can do to deter predators with real results. None will completely solve the problem, however, and thus there still remains scope for actions on the part of the potential victim to be useful.

 

[DragonLady]

Never in my puff have I been in a situation where my very survival has been dependent on knowing if there is a penis nearby.

Why, I'm certainly happy to hear that!

A great many have not been so fortunate.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Why, I'm certainly happy to hear that!

A great many have not been so fortunate.

You misunderstand. It's not that I have never been in danger. It is that a local penis census has never been necessary. Knowing where the penises are hasn't saved my life.

So again, why do you need to immediately know gender?
Why do you need to know for sure that a woman in front of you has a vagina?
Who said you couldn't mention it or ask?
Who said the police cannot give a factual description of a suspect?

 

[DragonLady]

You misunderstand. It's not that I have never been in danger. It is that a local penis census has never been necessary. Knowing where the penises are hasn't saved my life.

So again, why do you need to immediately know gender?
Why do you need to know for sure that a woman in front of you has a vagina?
Who said you couldn't mention it or ask?
Who said the police cannot give a factual description of a suspect?

I'm always answering your questions.

How 'bout you answer some of mine for a while?

Do you believe men treat other men differently than they treat women?
Do you believe women treat other women differently than they treat men?

Do you believe men and women think differently?

Do you believe transgender persons think more like their preferred gender than they do like their physical gender?

I don't know what the psychological community says about any of these things, but I can Google that. I'm curious what you think.

Edited to add a couple more things, just because they're on my mind:

Do you think predatory people exist?
Do you think the nature of their predations is likely to be affected by whether or not they have penises?
Do you think predators are more likely to choose victims with -or without- penises according to their preference?

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm constantly astounded that this presentation seems to suggest "...and so the woman needs to alter their behavior."

How about the sexual predator change theirs. How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males. Even if the conclusion is the behavior is negative, that presupposition creates a sort of "I couldn't help it" rationalization.

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And I'm constantly astounded by the naivete I encounter on this. Why do we have to check IDs? Why can't the fraudster's just change their behavior? Why do we have to lock doors? Why don't the thieves just change their behavior? Why do we have to take precautions against any sort of crime? Why can't criminals just change their behavior?

The people who are at risk of victimization have to take precautions if they don't want to be a victim, regardless of which sort of crime we are dealing with.

As a man, the risk of my being raped is so vanishingly small that never in all my life have I ever worried about it.