Transgender man gives birth

[DreamingNaiad]

Because it's pretty obvious that with all restrooms being available to all with no questions allowed, and pretty obvious everyone will have to use a restroom or shower at some point, everyone is being forced to accept whatever dangers there are from everyone.

If you say "I'm a transwoman, and I want to be able to use the washroom of my choice, and I choose the ladies room because I'm afraid of being assaulted in the men's."

The only thing you're accomplishing is increasing the likelihood you'll have to interact with women, without decreasing the likelihood you'll be assaulted.

It isn't that they are afraid of being assaulted in the mens'.

It is that they are outed to the community and can be at best discriminated against and at worst attacked.

 

[DragonLady]

It isn't that they are afraid of being assaulted in the mens'.

It is that they are outed to the community and can be at best discriminated against and at worst attacked.

Okay; my bad.

But how does that change if they're outed by other women who are offended?

How does that change if they're outed by either a woman or a man in the ladies room as opposed to the men's?

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Okay; my bad.

But how does that change if they're outed by other women who are offended?

How does that change if they're outed by either a woman or a man in the ladies room as opposed to the men's?

People tend to use the bathroom that corresponds to their outward appearance. They only way someone could know is if they were in the cubicle with them.

 

[Roboramma]

Well, yes, running water did help speed up, and probably popularize the transition.

But ancient bathhouses like the ones in Rome were a disease vector. The Romans knew hygiene was important; that's why they built the baths. But they knew nothing about germs, there were no disinfectants, and the water was only periodically drained.

Everyone bathed together -healthy and sick alike. When one person climbed in with gangrenous wounds or an infectious disease, others would become ill.

Is that a practice we want to bring back now? Granted, we can keep the water cleaner. But fewer people are immunizing their children, antibiotics are losing their effectiveness, health care isn't universal, and there are still plenty of people in this country who do not want to appear in any state of undress in a public area, for any reason.

What possible benefit would MOST people see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_in_Imperial_Rome

Ever been to a Korean bathhouse?

It's pretty nice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jjimjilbang

A jjimjilbang (Korean pronunciation: [t͈ɕimdʑilbaŋ]; Hangul: 찜질방; Hanja: 찜질房; MR: tchimjilbang) is a large, gender-segregated public bathhouse in Korea, furnished with hot tubs, showers, Korean traditional kiln saunas and massage tables. Jjimjil is derived from the words meaning heating. In other areas of the building or on other floors there are unisex areas, usually with a snack bar, ondol-heated floor for lounging and sleeping, wide-screen TVs, exercise rooms, ice rooms, heated salt rooms, PC bang, noraebang, and sleeping quarters with bunk beds or sleeping mats.

I doubt that the hygiene issue is any greater than a public swimming pool.

ETA:
Of course, Turkish Baths are also popular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_bath

Point being, your hypothetical is already a reality, and it's not actually the problem that you seem to think it would be.

 

[DragonLady]

Ever been to a Korean bathhouse?

It's pretty nice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jjimjilbang


I doubt that the hygiene issue is any greater than a public swimming pool.

ETA:
Of course, Turkish Baths are also popular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_bath

Point being, your hypothetical is already a reality, and it's not actually the problem that you seem to think it would be.

No. Didn't even know the place existed.

Thank-you!

 

[DragonLady]

People tend to use the bathroom that corresponds to their outward appearance. They only way someone could know is if they were in the cubicle with them.

That is true. If a person simply walks into a cubicle, answers nature and walks out, no one is going to be the wiser.

The creep factor comes in when someone really iffy- of any sex or gender wants to call attention to themselves somehow. That sets off the bells, and the prudent thing at that point is to leave as calmly and quickly as possible.

 

[tyr_13]

You're just being contrarian, now. I wish I could find the thread again, but the search function hasn't been good to me in a long while.

Well, we'll just add 'contrarian' to the list of words you have a different definition of. It doesn't change that the way you worded it, it wasn't someone's answer of many. Qualifiers are important.

No, Facebook's options are for gender, not pronouns.

Right, but you brought up the Facebook thing in response to my point about the pronouns. I was talking about the new pronouns and you're talking about genders as if accepting the gender spectrum means one supports the new pronouns. That's not actually true.

That's my point: it's what everyone says. So it's not very convincing.

I'll take that as a 'no, I didn't read any of the links'.

You seem quite fond of arguing by fiat. You say I'm wrong repeatedly, and I'm supposed to just accept your word on it.

Yup, that's definitely 'no, I didn't read any of the links or the papers cited therein'.

Do you know why transgender people have BSTc that match their identified gender and not their biological sex? Why do transgender people respond to androstadienone as their identified gender and not their biological sex? Why do some people group somewhere in between all of these sexually dimorphic traits? Why do you reject all the research on this as non-existent?

You didn't even ask for evidence, and just asserted that no such evidence existed. None of the people being highly skeptical of transgenderism being anything other than 'feelings' and 'delusions' have expressed any interest at all in the scientific findings. They've been mentioned and even cited many times in this thread, but it's like other factors (ideological, 'ick' factor) are overcoming their curiosity. Hell, more than a few of the psychological studies on it have been ripped into for poor design and other issues, and one would think these would be ripe avenues for criticizing transgenderism in general, but it's almost as if opponents haven't even done cursory research into it.

That's why I said it; so you could tell it was my opinion. Apparently you can't tell an opinion from a statement of fact even when it's specifically worded to avoid confusion.

Expect you're having an 'opinion' on a statement of fact. Sex and gender are not the same thing in the context of society and interpersonal interactions. This is a fact, in the dictionary with observational support and everything. Your opinion on that not being true doesn't matter. Even in scientific and medical fields, the term 'gender identity' is used to avoid confusion with the older usage. For someone who in this very post was complaining about arguing by fiat, this makes me yern for the mirroring technique again.

 

[Belz...]

Well, we'll just add 'contrarian' to the list of words you have a different definition of.

Someone who constantly takes a position opposed to someone else's, in this case out of principle. Which word would that be?

Right, but you brought up the Facebook thing in response to my point about the pronouns.

No I brought it up as a point about how mainstream these related ideas are.

I'll take that as a 'no, I didn't read any of the links'.

Of course you will, no matter how unrelated my answer is to what you'll take.

Do you know why transgender people have BSTc that match their identified gender and not their biological sex?

This has little to do with my points. I'm not denying that gender dysphoria exists.

You didn't even ask for evidence, and just asserted that no such evidence existed.

And that's a lie. Again.

 

[mgidm86]

If real people in the real world ever actually feel we've reached a point where this is a problem worth doing something about, then the easy solution is one restroom for everyone with cubicles.

Tada! Treat everyone equal. My frickin gawd this is lame.

This might be a good time to market your portable personal toilet invention if anyone should have one. "Pocket Pooper"?

 

[Meadmaker]

These are especially stupid or dishonest straw men. No one has here has made any argument even adjacent to this. The quote from Argumemnon there is a straight up lie. No one has said you're a bigot if you don't want to date or have sexual relations with a transwoman. No one has implied that.

Catching up after returning from vacation, so I haven't read the many pages after the post quoted above, but I have been in a thread where this was stated explicitly. No exaggeration.

Any time someone says that a trans-woman is anything other than a woman, or implies that they are different in any way, was bigotry. Specifically, the subject of biological males who refused to date transwomen came up, and it was called bigotry.

 

[Meadmaker]

Someone partway through a transition will look out of place in any locker room.
Other than individual stalls, or outright banning trans people from locker rooms altogether, I don't see a solution that isn't going to make at least some people uncomfortable undressing around them.

But we are told that individual stalls for the transitioning person is bigotry, because it will hurt their feelings.

That's not an exaggeration. We're coming up on a new school year, and there will be lawsuits going on. A school official will suggest a separate changing facility for the student who identifies as a girl, but is a biological male, and the school will be informed that making "her" dress individually is unfair because it singles "her" out from the other girls, i.e. the ones that have vaginas.

 

[cullennz]

How many of them were in transition?

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

I have never said they were

I said anyone could make out they are and wonder round anywhere

If someone is sick enough to do sick stuff like that, it is hardly a massive leap to put on a skirt and do this

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

But we are told that individual stalls for the transitioning person is bigotry, because it will hurt their feelings.

That's not an exaggeration. We're coming up on a new school year, and there will be lawsuits going on. A school official will suggest a separate changing facility for the student who identifies as a girl, but is a biological male, and the school will be informed that making "her" dress individually is unfair because it singles "her" out from the other girls, i.e. the ones that have vaginas.

That is an exaggeration since the post argued that everyone should have individual stalls so no singling out could be done - rather than that suggestion which keeps individual rooms for girls, transgirls, and boys.

Also. "her".

No. Just her.

 

[sylvan8798]

But we are told that individual stalls for the transitioning person is bigotry, because it will hurt their feelings.

That's not an exaggeration. We're coming up on a new school year, and there will be lawsuits going on. A school official will suggest a separate changing facility for the student who identifies as a girl, but is a biological male, and the school will be informed that making "her" dress individually is unfair because it singles "her" out from the other girls, i.e. the ones that have vaginas.

I always use my vagina, regardless of where I am. You wouldn't believe how useful they are in your general life situation. \s

 

[GlennB]

If real people in the real world ever actually feel we've reached a point where this is a problem worth doing something about, then the easy solution is one restroom for everyone with cubicles.

Tada! Treat everyone equal. My frickin gawd this is lame.

And spring-loaded seats could solve the eternal whine about leaving the seat up/down

 

[sphenisc]

I always use my vagina, regardless of where I am. You wouldn't believe how useful they are in your general life situation. \s

If they were that useful you wouldn't all spend so much money on handbags.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I have never said they were

I said anyone could make out they are and wonder round anywhere

If someone is sick enough to do sick stuff like that, it is hardly a massive leap to put on a skirt and do this

Are you saying that if the law doesn't change then the perverts (who already exist) will start wearing skirts?

 

[Meadmaker]

If I see a 6' muscle monkey follow my teenage daughter into a locker room or bathroom, am I really supposed to sit tight and think "Oh, I'll bet that's one of those trans-people...no worries!" Despite the far more likely chance he is a standard-issue male rapist?

Same if you see your wife leaving the restroom with the club tennis pro. "Oh, no, Dear...don't you know they're really a woman?"

Seriously? Or do you think you're going to at least consider the far more likely scenario: the tennis pro is a standard issue male, and your wife just enjoyed a quicky on the bathroom counter?

OTOH...if you're a physical female, but enter a locker room full of standard issue men, how much time do you think you can realistically spend there before one of them reveals himself to be a rapist? Do you think he'll stop if you say "But, wait! I'm a man! Really!"

I'd say:

If you have the equipment to rape women, stay out of the women's restrooms, locker rooms, etc.

If you have the equipment to be forcibly penetrated, and look like a woman*, stay out of the areas most often frequented by those heterosexuals with male parts.

*Yes; I realize those with male parts can be forcibly penetrated, too, but I believe it's much rarer, and those thus endowed have a far better chance of defending themselves, at least one-on-one.

I'm still catching up, and reading, and replying, as I go along.

One of the things that amazes me in these conversations is that I read the above, and I know what some of the responses will be. I've read them before. What DragonLady has said ought to be just so incredibly obvious, and yet I know what responses are coming.

 

[Meadmaker]

Also, the very few trans people I know would never undress in front of anyone, because of the rather high likelyhood they'd be assaulted for being different and the general discomfort of being 'outed' in general.

But the ones who make news are the ones who file lawsuits demanding the right to do exactly that.


I see so much denial in these threads. If "most trans people" were "all trans people", we would have a different situation. The reason things come up in the news is that someone, somewhere, demanded that they be accommodated even though they were not behaving like the few that you know. The lawsuits are demanding the right to undress in front of people, and/or to be around people who are undressing.

 

[zooterkin]

OTOH...if you're a physical female, but enter a locker room full of standard issue men, how much time do you think you can realistically spend there before one of them reveals himself to be a rapist?

Seriously, I don't know, how much time? What sort of locker room are you talking about?