Transgender man gives birth

[zooterkin]

You think it's irrational for a woman to think that a man seeing her nude may increase her odds of being assaulted?

Do you have figures showing that it is a rational fear?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You think it's irrational for a woman to think that a man seeing her nude may increase her odds of being assaulted?

Yes, because that line of reasoning presupposes that some kind of unstoppable lust wave will overtake a man if he sees womanly flesh. It's similar to what I said earlier about people needing to own their own feelings.

"That person made me afraid" travels the same path that "she was wearing a short skirt..." does. It implies the other person generated and psychicly transferred some kind of emotional override.

Pure metaphysical fiction.

 

[p0lka]

Sure. Okay.

Let's just make 'em all unisex.

Those who don't wish to share can stay home.

Those who are in fear of being assaulted or exploited for any reason by anyone can stay home.

Those who want to expect a room labeled "women" will actually contain women, can stay home and make their own sign for their own door.

Those who have bladder and/or bowel control issues, but don't want to share with the opposite sex, can stay home.

Those who need to wash their faces or hands but don't want to share with the opposite sex, can go home to do so -even if means leaving work in the middle of the day! We can probably convince Congress employers should pay for the time it takes them, too.

Those who need to blow their noses, but don't want to share with the opposite sex, can do so in public, and if they spray a bit, well...you know...life is messy. Or, they can just stay home.

Those who need to inject themselves for serious illnesses, but don't want to share with the opposite sex, can do so right out in public or go home.

Those who need to vomit but don't want to share with the opposite sex, can run 'round the back by the dumpsters.

Those who need to change clothes, but don't want to share with the opposite sex, can go home. Hell, we might be able to convince Congress employers should pay for the time it takes them.


I will be just fine. Will you?

Every single point you made above would also apply in your proposed solution

Actually............

Does anyone have a "right" to be there?

Maybe the best solution for everyone is to simply remove public bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers.

I know that might seem facetious, but it isn't. Maybe public facilities have had their day, and it's time to give them up?

except everyone would have to stay home.

How is your solution any better?

offtopic but

Those who need to inject themselves for serious illnesses, but don't want to share with the opposite sex, can do so right out in public or go home.

No one should be taking injections in toilets unless you want some sort of infection, I'm type 1 diabetic and take my injections at the table where I eat, in public.

 

[Giz]

Yes, because that line of reasoning presupposes that some kind of unstoppable lust wave will overtake a man if he sees womanly flesh. It's similar to what I said earlier about people needing to own their own feelings.

"That person made me afraid" travels the same path that "she was wearing a short skirt..." does. It implies the other person generated and psychicly transferred some kind of emotional override.

Pure metaphysical fiction.

Are you conflating risk with moral culpability?

 

[DragonLady]

Yes, because that line of reasoning presupposes that some kind of unstoppable lust wave will overtake a man if he sees womanly flesh. It's similar to what I said earlier about people needing to own their own feelings.

"That person made me afraid" travels the same path that "she was wearing a short skirt..." does. It implies the other person generated and psychicly transferred some kind of emotional override.

Pure metaphysical fiction.

Not exactly. Fear is a chemical response to possible threats.

We humans have been learning what is -and is not- a threat to us since the day we evolved, and the system is just as complex and multi-dimensional as sexuality, and possibly gender.

So to say someone can't "get over" feeling mis-gendered, but that someone else should "get over" feeling afraid is arguing both sides of the same coin.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Not exactly. Fear is a chemical response to possible threats.

We humans have been learning what is -and is not- a threat to us since the day we evolved, and the system is just as complex and multi-dimensional as sexuality, and possibly gender.

So to say someone can't "get over" feeling mis-gendered, but that someone else should "get over" feeling afraid is arguing both sides of the same coin.

Assigning threat status when only superficial details have been observed is the problem.

If you want insight about what behavior to expect from an individual, that's a horribly misleading cue to base it on.

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[DragonLady]

Every single point you made above would also apply in your proposed solution

except everyone would have to stay home.

How is your solution any better?

It's not. But if we're really going to argue about who has "more" right to a bathroom, maybe we all deserve to lose them.

offtopic but

No one should be taking injections in toilets unless you want some sort of infection, I'm type 1 diabetic and take my injections at the table where I eat, in public.

Okay; I've only known one person who did the injections, and she usually went into the bathroom.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Are you conflating risk with moral culpability?

No, I'm saying people blame their own feelings on others rather than admitting they generated them on their own.

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[DragonLady]

Assigning threat status when only superficial details have been observed is the problem.

Maybe.

Maybe expecting the entire world to accept penises in the ladies room is the problem.
Maybe expecting the entire world to accept vaginas in the mens room is the problem.

Maybe expecting the whole world to stand aside and ignore protocols that have been in place for thousands of years to cater to the demands of a small-but-vocal minority is the problem.

Whatever the problem is, I don't think a solution will be easy to find, and I think someone will be unhappy, regardless. So when that someone yells loudly enough, will the clock be turned back to cater to them?

 

[sylvan8798]

Right now, I don't think enough male-shaped people enter women's restrooms -or vice-versa for it to seem "normal" enough not to call some attention.

But if it starts to happen all the time, so people stop paying any attention, those who would exploit it will.

"Oh, I've no idea...so many men-shaped-people have entered that room today that I simply didn't notice, and of course...it would be dehumanizing to ask any questions............"

Laws like the Texas "bathroom bill" want to restrict everyone to the bathrooms as listed on their birth certificate. If that were to become the case, then transmen who haven't been able to change their birth certificates (not possible in some states, not easy in others, and as I understand it, generally requiring that they have had surgery) will be using the women's rooms while LOOKING like men-shaped-people to anyone not able to see their genitals. So you would see MORE "men-shaped-people" entering the women's rooms and not less.

You have indicated that those men-shaped-people should use the men's room, which is the accommodation they are looking for. Apparently it is just the transwomen (and the ciswomen) who don't look womanly enough who would cause you fits. As a woman, I feel that I share something with them in terms of safety concerns, so I'm not willing to consign them to the men's room, or to their homes for that matter.

You keep pointing out how small the trans population is, then assert that "so many men-shaped-people" would be entering the women's room as to cause the rest of the populace to stop noticing.

 

[DragonLady]

No, I'm saying people blame their own feelings on others rather than admitting they generated them on their own.

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I don't know.... In this case, I'd hazard a guarded guess the triggers are being generated by the transgendered person.

They need only be a bit nervous or anxious to send out signals that would cause fear and distrust.

One of the reasons people should always, always trust their fears is because their bodies are reacting to signals they can't see. So even if all looks good, a sense of foreboding or fear can be a sign of a very real danger.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Maybe.

Maybe expecting the entire world to accept penises in the ladies room is the problem.
Maybe expecting the entire world to accept vaginas in the mens room is the problem.

Maybe expecting the whole world to stand aside and ignore protocols that have been in place for thousands of years to cater to the demands of a small-but-vocal minority is the problem.

Whatever the problem is, I don't think a solution will be easy to find, and I think someone will be unhappy, regardless. So when that someone yells loudly enough, will the clock be turned back to cater to them?

Sorry you find equality so devastating to tour life.

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[sylvan8798]

And if I don't?

Do I then get to demand such person prove it?

If not, why not?

Why does -or why should- being transgendered trump basic safety concerns?

By your own admission, when there were men in the ladies room with you you did not stop to take the time to question them.

What would demanding such a person prove it even look like?

 

[DragonLady]

You keep pointing out how small the trans population is, then assert that "so many men-shaped-people" would be entering the women's room as to cause the rest of the populace to stop noticing.

Oops. My bad. You're right. I was thinking about your earlier post, where you said those who are uncomfortable might become the minority.

Maybe they will. But, honestly, I suspect the increasing number of predators exploiting the system will ensure there will always be some reason for anxiety and concern.

 

[DragonLady]

By your own admission, when there were men in the ladies room with you you did not stop to take the time to question them.

What would demanding such a person prove it even look like?

I don't know.

But I think there will always be predators, and I think they will always find ways to cause trouble.

But I don't think we should intentionally make it easier for them.

 

[Belz...]

You think it's an accurate assessment? You think it's the naked lady's problem if some man can't control himself?

That's completely irrelevant. It's enough that the risk is real because some people are douchebags, and that many women are experience stress and fear in those situations.

Because it's not. It's a purely cultural taboo, as evidenced by the differing standards throughout the world.

Are you claiming that the fear of assault or rape is based purely on cultural elements and not on the existence of actual assault and rape?

 

[Belz...]

Do you have figures showing that it is a rational fear?

What would you consider to be a threshold for the fear to be rational? 1/10? 1/1000? 1/1,000,000? People do play the lottery expecting to win even with very low odds, after all. The actual figures are more-or-less irrelevant. These crimes occur, and so people are worried about being victims.

Yes, because that line of reasoning presupposes that some kind of unstoppable lust wave will overtake a man if he sees womanly flesh.

Absolutely not. You only ever need to meet one. Why are you treating this as a black-and-white issue?

 

[GlennB]

No one should be taking injections in toilets unless you want some sort of infection, I'm type 1 diabetic and take my injections at the table where I eat, in public.

Interesting comparison. We have a friend who does the same and it doesn't bother us, but others have been taken by surprise and, detesting needles, have reacted quite strongly.

But what if your meds required IV injection? Would you administer them in public in the full knowledge that a fair number of people find such injections deeply unpleasant to watch? Or is it something that everybody should "get over"?

Is it OK to take a casual pee in the gutter on a busy street and justify it on the grounds that it's a natural bodily function that only recently became taboo and people should be less uptight?

 

[CORed]

Laws like the Texas "bathroom bill" want to restrict everyone to the bathrooms as listed on their birth certificate. If that were to become the case, then transmen who haven't been able to change their birth certificates (not possible in some states, not easy in others, and as I understand it, generally requiring that they have had surgery) will be using the women's rooms while LOOKING like men-shaped-people to anyone not able to see their genitals. So you would see MORE "men-shaped-people" entering the women's rooms and not less.

You have indicated that those men-shaped-people should use the men's room, which is the accommodation they are looking for. Apparently it is just the transwomen (and the ciswomen) who don't look womanly enough who would cause you fits. As a woman, I feel that I share something with them in terms of safety concerns, so I'm not willing to consign them to the men's room, or to their homes for that matter.

You keep pointing out how small the trans population is, then assert that "so many men-shaped-people" would be entering the women's room as to cause the rest of the populace to stop noticing.

I think the best way to protest these idiotic "bathroom laws" would be aggressive compliance, i.e., have lots of transgendered people who look like their chosen gender carry their birth certificates (who actually does that?) and use the bathroom they are required by law to use. Really, if a transgendered individual uses a stall and is reasonably discreet, who's going to know anyway? Rapists and peeping toms are not going to be deterred by this sort of legislation anyway.

I can't say I really understand the motivation that leads people to fervently desire to be a gender that is contrary to physical reality. OTOH, what is the harm? I seriously doubt that transgendered people can be "cured" and I certainly wouldn't support trying to do so forcibly (nor denying those, if any, who really want to be "cured" from trying). The bathroom thing seems to me to be a giant red herring to feed the prejudices and irrational fears of people who are a bit different.

 

[3point14]

That's completely irrelevant. It's enough that the risk is real because some people are douchebags, and that many women are experience stress and fear in those situations.

I'll accept the fear. I'd need some demonstration that it's a rational fear before applying any weight to it.

Are you claiming that the fear of assault or rape is based purely on cultural elements and not on the existence of actual assault and rape?

I think the fear of rape needs to be rational before it has any weight.