Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[shuttlt]

Yes, they just came to their current conclusions on this subject completely randomly and arbitrarily. Obviously.

One might as well also ask how the world's experts were able to determine that homosexuality is a valid condition, rather than (as was previously believed) a deviancy and mental health deficiency. Must one demand similar "evidence" on an issue such as this? And that without such "evidence", is it appropriate to dismiss the experts' opinion on the matter and continue regarding gay people as mentally ill?

You're the one who thinks there is a reason. What is it?

 

[LondonJohn]

You're the one who thinks there is a reason. What is it?

No. I provisionally trust that the huge cumulative knowledge and experience of the people who are actually experts in the medical science community has sufficiently informed their deductions and conclusions. These people, collectively, have accumulated literal centuries-worth of contact with transgender people and academic research into transgender identity. If you want to challenge their conclusions, that's up to you. I myself do not challenge their conclusions.

As I said: what is the "reason" why the world's experts changed (evolved) their beliefs on homosexuality?

 

[Mycroft]

It is not about trans, it is about MALES

I’m confused. Are you now claiming men who are not trans are filming themselves masturbating in women’s bathrooms?

We do not have "gender specific" spaces, we have SEX specific spaces. SEX. A thing that is real and has a material impact on our lives, and the basis of a massive amount of abuse, discrimination, and hatred directed at females. Not because of some nebulous "gender" but because of our very real SEX.

And yet earlier you were arguing that trans-people who can pass will continue to use the spaces of their choice.

That means it is about gender and not sex. If it were solely about sex those people would not be allowed to use the spaces of their choice regardless of how well they can pass.

Do me a favor. Take a moment and reframe your argument. Make the same argument for why we shouldn't smear every male with the crimes committed by males, and why therefore, females should be required to allow males into their intimate spaces including prisons. Tell me why teenage females are bigots if they don't let males into their showers and locker rooms, just because *some* males are predators.

I think the primary purpose of segregation is modesty. We don’t really believe the vast majority of men are sex offenders, even if we sometimes treat them that way.

 

[LondonJohn]

I will say this about that:

Firstly, I've already said that you're wrong to be referring to gender dysphoria in this context. You should be referring to transgender identity. I'm surprised that you still apparently cannot understand the difference.

Secondly, your dismissal of my entire post with "<snip>" is, well, it's something, isn't it? It certainly isn't any kind of rebuttal or response. But there you go.

 

[LondonJohn]

No, not the entire group. But ENOUGH of the group to be a cause of concern. ENOUGH of the group to merit serious consideration for the policies being put in place.

Here's some food for thought. When we look at transgender people who are incarcerated, there are virtually no transmen. For males in general, the rate of sexual assault is on the order of 15%. For transwomen, it's on the order of 50%. That is - 50% of transwomen in prison have records including sex crimes, compared to only 15% of males.

So... Does this mean that transwomen have a higher propensity for committing sex crimes? Or does this mean that males who commit sex crimes are more likely to claim to be transwomen (even if it's not true). In either case, what is the implication of that when prisons allow self-declared transwomen to be placed with females?

Where within the prison population should males who have committed sexual offences against other males be placed? Clearly (according to your argument) they should not be allowed to be placed in male prisons. That would obviously be a total dereliction of the authorities' duty of care to other male prisoners, wouldn't it?

 

[Mycroft]

Where within the prison population should males who have committed sexual offences against other males be placed? Clearly (according to your argument) they should not be allowed to be placed in male prisons. That would obviously be a total dereliction of the authorities' duty of care to other male prisoners, wouldn't it?

Good point.

What about women who have victimized other women? Where should they go?

 

[lionking]

Good point.

What about women who have victimized other women? Where should they go?

It might be a good point if only women, on average, had the same physiology, strength and aggression as men. The danger to women having a male bodied cell mate should be obvious to all.

 

[Mycroft]

It might be a good point if only women, on average, had the same physiology, strength and aggression as men. The danger to women having a male bodied cell mate should be obvious to all.

A woman can be matched with another woman who is substantially stronger. Does it matter if the stronger one is cis or trans? If so, why?

Again, it's a false choice between doing nothing at all and tolerating every abuse from trans-people and discriminating against trans-people wholesale. I don't see anything wrong with making appropriate rules for circumstances where abuses are more likely to occur.

We should have prisons where inmates of any gender, trans or cis, are not able to abuse other inmates. If we are to put people in prison, we have an obligation to keep them safe.

 

[d4m10n]

One might as well also ask how the world's experts were able to determine that homosexuality is a valid condition, rather than (as was previously believed) a deviancy and mental health deficiency.

One might well answer that they were persuaded by activists. And that's just fine, the activists were persuasive, and correct.

For your analogy to work, though, there would have to be a modern declassification effort for gender dysphoria, akin to the one documented by the NYT back in 1973.

I don't know if you guys can see the linked article or not, but here is one of the interesting bits, from Dr. Robert L. Spitzer:

The criteria I propose applies to almost all of the conditions that are generally considered psychiatric disorders: The condition must either regularly cause subjective distress or regularly be associated with some generalized impairment in social effectiveness or functioning.

I think that's a decent starting point for sorting "valid" conditions from disorders.

 

[lionking]

We should have prisons where inmates of any gender, trans or cis, are not able to abuse other inmates. If we are to put people in prison, we have an obligation to keep them safe.

And yet you know this is not the case, and this not being the case, male bodied transwomen should not be in women’s prisons.

 

[smartcooky]

I suspect you mean transwomen. The language is confusing. I tend to think it's intentionally obfuscated. Males who identify as women are "transwomen". Or alternatively transgender-identified males. Or, if you're feeling a bit less politically correct, they're simply males.

Yep, my bad.

For clarity, any person who was born male, regardless of how they identify later, should never he allowed to compete in women's sports.

 

[Aber]

No. I provisionally trust that the huge cumulative knowledge and experience of the people who are actually experts in the medical science community has sufficiently informed their deductions and conclusions.

You were earlier asked whether you included the Cass Review as part of this, but seem not to have answered?

 

[LondonJohn]

You were earlier asked whether you included the Cass Review as part of this, but seem not to have answered?

Of course I include it. The Cass Review is specifically and solely concerned with addressing optimal intervention levels & timings for children and young adults. In no way does it even question - let alone reject - the core notion that transgender identity is valid.

 

[lionking]

Of course I include it. The Cass Review is specifically and solely concerned with addressing optimal intervention levels & timings for children and young adults. In no way does it even question - let alone reject - the core notion that transgender identity is valid.

The Cass Review was commissioned because of abuse of children by “affirmative approach” quacks. Its existence questions that transgender identity is valid for pre-pubescent children.

 

[Matthew Best]

Looks like it’s deleted

e

Seems to work for me:

https://twitter.com/TorontoPolice/status/1542496992626106368

 

[LondonJohn]

The Cass Review was commissioned because of abuse of children by “affirmative approach” quacks. Its existence questions that transgender identity is valid for pre-pubescent children.

No, this is incorrect. The Cass Report recognises that for a certain proportion of pre-pubescent children, irreversible (or even difficult-to-reverse) intervention is inappropriate because the child is confused as to their gender identity and may ultimately identify as the gender/sex they were assigned at birth.

On the other hand, the report finds that for many pre-pubescent children who identify as transgender, a lack of significant intervention may end up causing undesirable long-term outcomes when that child grows up to affirm their transgender identity into adulthood.

What the report doesn't do is question the actual notion of the validity of transgender identity within this age group. There are plenty of people in this age group whose transgender identity is genuine and valid, and those people need the proper assistance and intervention at the right time. However for some in this age group, their transgender identity turns out to be a transient phase - and for these people, certain medical and psychological interventions when they're in their teens can turn out to be harmful. The problem is in figuring out how to differentiate between those two groups.

 

[lionking]

Or the solution, which other countries have come to, even the vaunted and progressive Scandinavian countries, have come to the conclusion that “affirmative” treatments should not be provided to children.

Know what, I would like you to list these progressive and enlightened nations you refer to who are exemplars? Is Sweden on that list? If so why, if not, why not?

The tide is turning on puberty blockers and other permanent “treatments” of children. It’s been a shameful thing that TRAs and their fellow travellers have promoted and achieved laws which have damaged children. So much for enlighten and progressive politicians.

 

[smartcooky]

Or the solution, which other countries have come to, even the vaunted and progressive Scandinavian countries, have come to the conclusion that “affirmative” treatments should not be provided to children.

Know what, I would like you to list these progressive and enlightened nations you refer to who are exemplars? Is Sweden on that list? If so why, if not, why not?

The tide is turning on puberty blockers and other permanent “treatments” of children. It’s been a shameful thing that TRAs and their fellow travellers have promoted and achieved laws which have damaged children. So much for enlighten and progressive politicians.

Please STOP using loaded political terms to generalize the actors this issue. Not all progressives will disagree with your position... as I pointed out earlier, I am a liberal/progressive, but I am firmly in YOUR camp on this!

 

[lionking]

Please STOP using loaded political terms to generalize the actors this issue. Not all progressives will disagree with your position... as I pointed out earlier, I am a liberal/progressive, but I am firmly in YOUR camp on this!

Have a look at LJ’s posts. He’s the one going on about progressive politicians, not me. When challenged about his pronouncements he doesn’t name the jurisdictions or provide any evidence of such pronouncements. I’m asking him for evidence, not you.

 

[Aber]

On the other hand, the report finds that for many pre-pubescent children who identify as transgender, a lack of significant intervention may end up causing undesirable long-term outcomes when that child grows up to affirm their transgender identity into adulthood.

A reference for this would be useful.

The closest I've seen is:

5.8. Regardless of aetiology, the more contentious and important question is how fixed or fluid gender incongruence is at different ages and stages of development, and whether, regardless of aetiology, can be an inherent characteristic of the individual concerned. There is a spectrum of academic, clinical and societal opinion on this.

At one end are those who believe that gender identity can fluctuate over time and be highly mutable and that, because gender incongruence or gender related distress may be a response to many psychosocial factors, identity may sometimes change or the distress may resolve in later adolescence or early adulthood, even in those whose early incongruence or distress was quite marked.

At the other end are those who believe that gender incongruence or dysphoria in childhood or adolescence is generally a clear indicator of that child or young person being transgender and question the methodology of some of the desistance studies. Previous literature has indicated that if gender incongruence continues into puberty, desistance is unlikely.

However, it should be noted that these older studies were not based on the current changed case-mix or the different sociocultural climate of recent years, which may have led to different outcomes. Having an open discussion about these questions is essential if a shared understanding of how to provide appropriate assessment and treatment is to be reached.