Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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You're claiming that transpeople have autogynophilia (AGP) and they want to victimize people's daughters by masturbating while in the bathroom with them.

That's not a reasonable claim. That is not a defensable claim.


For "transpeople", substitute "a substantial proportion of transwomen in western societies" and you're getting there.

Most of this stuff is indescribably icky and NSFW. I can only commend the purity of your lifestyle and in particular your social media consumption that you are somehow unaware of it.

Oh, and the spelling is either "autogynaephilia" (UK) or "autogynephilia" (US). I doubt if a small spelling error would prevent lots of relevant search results coming up though.

ETA: Are you seriously of the opinion that I made this stuff up?
 
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I think that was adequately addressed in my next paragraph, which you deleted in your response. You seem to be trending towards a lot of unwarranted antagonism towards me, on a point where we are in substantial agreement.

I think a great many of us females are on the ragged edge of patience right now. In the US, we've lost bodily autonomy with the striking down of Roe V Wade, and we've lost the right to equal participation in school and sport due to the expansion of Title IX, and we're on the cusp of a "Trans Bill of Rights" that is taking over the Equal Rights Amendment that we've tried for half a century to get passed and which would essentially codify self-declared gender identity as more important than the reality of sex and strip any progress we've made toward female equality.

In Europe and the US, we've had hounding of lesbians for the past month, including a complete revisionist history of gay rights, completely erasing the contributions of very influential lesbians and replacing them with "trans" people who were neither trans nor even present.

We've seen many cases of organizations trying to bring attention to violence against women and children being picketed and physically attacked by almost exclusively male trans activists.

Canada has lost its mind. UK and Scotland and Ireland have lost their minds. France has lost its mind. Australia has lost its mind. New Zealand has lost its mind. The US has lost its mind. We can't even NAME ourselves to combat these infringements on our basic humanity!

So I get that you might feel like Rolfe is being snippy... But I'm betting that both Rolfe and I are completely fed the **** up with trying to be nice. You may not be the cause, and you are a good ally. But we shouldn't have to constantly be the "nice girl" in a battle that directly affects us in such a fundamental way.
 
Absolutely agree. Statements such as the highlighted are unfair generalisations.

I am an unapologetic liberal and progressive, but that does not mean I agree with all things in the progressive "agenda". I rebel against political correctness and am implacably opposed to transmen being allowed to compete in women's sports..

I suspect you mean transwomen. The language is confusing. I tend to think it's intentionally obfuscated. Males who identify as women are "transwomen". Or alternatively transgender-identified males. Or, if you're feeling a bit less politically correct, they're simply males.
 
Just about any kind of person you can imagine will exist among the 8 billion living souls on this planet, but any time you judge a group based on the behavior of a small number of members of that group, you are being prejudiced.



I saw a very similar argument from a trumper about immigrants. He pointed to an article where an illegal immigrant from Mexico kidnapped and murdered a pretty white college student. His argument was that if this person wasn't in the USA, this young woman would not have been murdered.

Which is true, but the argument is still flawed. Can you spot the flaw?

You're very cavalier about forcing females to accept risk and danger into our intimate spaces. You're very willing for us to become unwilling and nonconsenting actors in someone's sexual fetish.

Why are you so ready to sacrifice the safety, dignity, and basic humanity of many females in order to affirm the feelings of some males?
 
Go to reddit and read the various trans subreddits. I've seen them, Rolfe has seen them, they're not exactly secret. Even twitter has a pretty good collection of pretty astonishingly horrific posts.

Seriously, you can doubt all you want while covering your eyes, but some of these people aren't even *trying* to hide it.

I've been to Reddit before and have a good idea what can be found there, but finding something on Reddit doesn't make it common, nor should it be a reason to discriminate against anyone. Pokemon porn? That doesn't mean you shouldn't let your kid play collectable card games.

As I said to Rolfe, there are 8 billion people on this planet and most of them are connected by the internet. You will be able to find people who fit almost anything you can imagine.

You've heard of rule 34, right?
 
Just about any kind of person you can imagine will exist among the 8 billion living souls on this planet, but any time you judge a group based on the behavior of a small number of members of that group, you are being prejudiced.



I saw a very similar argument from a trumper about immigrants. He pointed to an article where an illegal immigrant from Mexico kidnapped and murdered a pretty white college student. His argument was that if this person wasn't in the USA, this young woman would not have been murdered.

Which is true, but the argument is still flawed. Can you spot the flaw?

I’m trying to figure out why your logic doesn’t argue against all sex segregated spaces, and I can’t see how it doesn’t.
 
I've been to Reddit before and have a good idea what can be found there, but finding something on Reddit doesn't make it common, nor should it be a reason to discriminate against anyone. Pokemon porn? That doesn't mean you shouldn't let your kid play collectable card games.

As I said to Rolfe, there are 8 billion people on this planet and most of them are connected by the internet. You will be able to find people who fit almost anything you can imagine.

You've heard of rule 34, right?

Just so we're clear... you seem to be taking the position that even though there are most definitely males out there who get a perverse sexual thrill out of invading female spaces and making females uncomfortable, who in their own words describe (and often film) themselves masturbating in female-only spaces... your position is that even though those people definitely exist and definitely identify themselves as transgender... that's not a good enough reason for females to want to exclude them from female-only spaces?

Can you provide some solid reasoning for why females shouldn't be required to allow ALL MALES into female-only spaces?
 
You're very cavalier about forcing females to accept risk and danger into our intimate spaces. You're very willing for us to become unwilling and nonconsenting actors in someone's sexual fetish.

Nope. I didn't say that nor can it be derrived from anything I did say.

Why are you so ready to sacrifice the safety, dignity, and basic humanity of many females in order to affirm the feelings of some males?

I think it's possible to deal with the bad actors without discriminating against entire classes of people.

For example, if I go into a public bathroom and masturbate, I can be arrested for any number of charges. Being trans or cis has nothing to do with it. This whole idea that if we are accepting of trans-people we must tollerate the worst behavior the worst of them will get up to is just silly and stupid.

Are you afraid a trans-person is going to get arroused in a public bathroom from hearing someone else pee? Is that somehow worse if a trans-person is arroused than if a cis-woman is arroused by the same thing?

Masturbating in public restrooms is already illegal. You can prosecute trans-people for doing it just the same as cis-people are prosecuted.
 
I’m trying to figure out why your logic doesn’t argue against all sex segregated spaces, and I can’t see how it doesn’t.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't see it, but I do wonder why single toilet bathrooms are segregated. We should have more gender neutral bathrooms.
 
If I believe I am Napoleon, I am delusional. If I believe I am a woman, I am delusional.


Well, you're certainly entitled to hold that belief of course (just as, for example, you're entitled to hold the belief that homosexuality is a deviancy and a mental illness). However, the problem for your belief is that current mainstream medical/scientific thinking disagrees with it. The world's actual experts in the relevant fields consider that while a someone stating they identify as Napoleon is indeed delusional, a person assigned male/man at birth who states they identify as a woman is not delusional.



We can reframe "being Napoleon" to some social act of "performing Napoleon", or some inner essence of Napoleonnes that I am somehow possibly experiencing, and so perhaps I am Napoleon? Why can't we play the same game for being Napoleon that we have for being a woman? What delusional belief can't be "valid" if we only go to the effort of playing language games to validate it?


As I say: you're perfectly entitled to draw no distinction between a) someone who identifies as Napoleon, and b) a person assigned male at birth who identifies as a woman. You're entitled to believe that both are equally delusional and disordered. But, as I say, the actual experts in this field fundamentally disagree with your belief*. And I vastly, vastly prefer the beliefs of the people who are actually properly qualified and experienced.... over your belief. As, fortunately, do most progressive governments and legislative bodies.


* If my beliefs on any given matter directly contradict the beliefs of those who are expertly qualified and experienced in that matter, I generally want to try to understand why the experts' belief is so different from mine, and whether their belief - based as it is on vast accumulated/aggregated amounts of experience, knowledge and understanding - trumps mine. It usually does. But I guess that's just me.
 
I think it's possible to deal with the bad actors without discriminating against entire classes of people.

For example, if I go into a public bathroom and masturbate, I can be arrested for any number of charges. Being trans or cis has nothing to do with it. This whole idea that if we are accepting of trans-people we must tollerate the worst behavior the worst of them will get up to is just silly and stupid.

Are you afraid a trans-person is going to get arroused in a public bathroom from hearing someone else pee? Is that somehow worse if a trans-person is arroused than if a cis-woman is arroused by the same thing?

Masturbating in public restrooms is already illegal. You can prosecute trans-people for doing it just the same as cis-people are prosecuted.

First off, females do not get aroused by hearing other females pee. Males with sexual fetishes get aroused by hearing females pee.

Secondly, regardless of how they identify, they are still males. And yes, a male being sexually aroused in a female-only intimate space is a much bigger risk than a female being aroused in a female-only intimate space.

Third, your position is one that disallows basic reasonable safeguarding for females, and leans on "well, after those females have already been harmed, then we'll think about maybe doing something about it". Why not prevent the harm in the first place?

Fourth, THIS IS ALREADY HAPPENING AND IT IS NOT BEING DEALT WITH. So your hollow promise of "it's already illegal" is pointless sophistry. FFS, a female patient, on a female-only hospital ward, was raped by a male patient who was housed there. The staff lied to the female and gaslit them for over a year despite there being footage of the assault... because their policy was that "transwomen are women" so there was no man there to do the raping in the first place.
 
Just so we're clear... you seem to be taking the position that even though there are most definitely males out there who get a perverse sexual thrill out of invading female spaces and making females uncomfortable, who in their own words describe (and often film) themselves masturbating in female-only spaces... your position is that even though those people definitely exist and definitely identify themselves as transgender... that's not a good enough reason for females to want to exclude them from female-only spaces?

So they've filmed themselves masturbating in female-only spaces? What exactly makes them immune from prosecution for that? How about if we just deal with them and not everybody who is trans? You know, don't be prejudiced against an entire group for the bad behavior of a sub-set of that group.

Can you provide some solid reasoning for why females shouldn't be required to allow ALL MALES into female-only spaces?

That's a straw-man. There are lots of reasons for having gender specific spaces. The primary difference between you and I is I think you can kick out and prosecute the ******* who wants to show off their boner to traumatised woman without smearing every trans-person with their crimes.

Some of those people in women's shelters were victimized by other women. It would not be unreasonable to require that everyone cover up in communal areas.
 
Well, you're certainly entitled to hold that belief of course (just as, for example, you're entitled to hold the belief that homosexuality is a deviancy and a mental illness). However, the problem for your belief is that current mainstream medical/scientific thinking disagrees with it. The world's actual experts in the relevant fields consider that while a someone stating they identify as Napoleon is indeed delusional, a person assigned male/man at birth who states they identify as a woman is not delusional.






As I say: you're perfectly entitled to draw no distinction between a) someone who identifies as Napoleon, and b) a person assigned male at birth who identifies as a woman. You're entitled to believe that both are equally delusional and disordered. But, as I say, the actual experts in this field fundamentally disagree with your belief*. And I vastly, vastly prefer the beliefs of the people who are actually properly qualified and experienced.... over your belief. As, fortunately, do most progressive governments and legislative bodies.


* If my beliefs on any given matter directly contradict the beliefs of those who are expertly qualified and experienced in that matter, I generally want to try to understand why the experts' belief is so different from mine, and whether their belief - based as it is on vast accumulated/aggregated amounts of experience, knowledge and understanding - trumps mine. It usually does. But I guess that's just me.

Once again, WHICH EXPERTS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

You have yet to produce an support for your assertions.
 
Well, you're certainly entitled to hold that belief of course (just as, for example, you're entitled to hold the belief that homosexuality is a deviancy and a mental illness). However, the problem for your belief is that current mainstream medical/scientific thinking disagrees with it. The world's actual experts in the relevant fields consider that while a someone stating they identify as Napoleon is indeed delusional, a person assigned male/man at birth who states they identify as a woman is not delusional.
I'm certainly aware of that. I'm not arguing from authority though, so I really don't care that they are inconsistent in this way. The story of how they changed their mind about homosexuality is quite well known.

As I say: you're perfectly entitled to draw no distinction between a) someone who identifies as Napoleon, and b) a person assigned male at birth who identifies as a woman. You're entitled to believe that both are equally delusional and disordered. But, as I say, the actual experts in this field fundamentally disagree with your belief*. And I vastly, vastly prefer the beliefs of the people who are actually properly qualified and experienced.... over your belief. As, fortunately, do most progressive governments and legislative bodies.
Yes, well. I'm fascinated by their discovery of the "essence of woman" that they presumably used to validate these peoples experiences, rather than changing their opinion to align with whatever ideological agenda was hip.

If my beliefs on any given matter directly contradict the beliefs of those who are expertly qualified and experienced in that matter, I generally want to try to understand why the experts' belief is so different from mine, and whether their belief - based as it is on vast accumulated/aggregated amounts of experience, knowledge and understanding - trumps mine. It usually does. But I guess that's just me.
Given that this is such a hot button issue, I'm sure they will have made a statement somewhere explaining how they were able to determine that trans-women are in fact women. Or is "essence of woman" a secret? When you find that explanation, please share it.
 
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So they've filmed themselves masturbating in female-only spaces? What exactly makes them immune from prosecution for that? How about if we just deal with them and not everybody who is trans? You know, don't be prejudiced against an entire group for the bad behavior of a sub-set of that group.
It is not about trans, it is about MALES


That's a straw-man. There are lots of reasons for having gender specific spaces. The primary difference between you and I is I think you can kick out and prosecute the ******* who wants to show off their boner to traumatised woman without smearing every trans-person with their crimes.

Some of those people in women's shelters were victimized by other women. It would not be unreasonable to require that everyone cover up in communal areas.
We do not have "gender specific" spaces, we have SEX specific spaces. SEX. A thing that is real and has a material impact on our lives, and the basis of a massive amount of abuse, discrimination, and hatred directed at females. Not because of some nebulous "gender" but because of our very real SEX.

Do me a favor. Take a moment and reframe your argument. Make the same argument for why we shouldn't smear every male with the crimes committed by males, and why therefore, females should be required to allow males into their intimate spaces including prisons. Tell me why teenage females are bigots if they don't let males into their showers and locker rooms, just because *some* males are predators.
 
Nope. I didn't say that nor can it be derrived from anything I did say.



I think it's possible to deal with the bad actors without discriminating against entire classes of people.

For example, if I go into a public bathroom and masturbate, I can be arrested for any number of charges. Being trans or cis has nothing to do with it. This whole idea that if we are accepting of trans-people we must tollerate the worst behavior the worst of them will get up to is just silly and stupid.

Are you afraid a trans-person is going to get arroused in a public bathroom from hearing someone else pee? Is that somehow worse if a trans-person is arroused than if a cis-woman is arroused by the same thing?

Masturbating in public restrooms is already illegal. You can prosecute trans-people for doing it just the same as cis-people are prosecuted.


Exactly.

In addition, there are (sadly) countless cases, on an ongoing basis, all over countries such as US or UK, of matters such as aggressive older lesbians harassing or assaulting younger women and girls in women's bathrooms/changing rooms; and older aggressive gay men harassing or assaulting younger men and boys in men's bathrooms/changing rooms; and straight girls/women bullying & assaulting girls/women in girls'/women's bathrooms/changing rooms; and straight boys/men bullying & assaulting boys/men in boys'/men's bathrooms/changing rooms.

All of the above are happening right now, and have happened for decades. Most of that behaviour is against the law in most countries. Should we seek to protect potentially-vulnerable girls/women by preventing all lesbians from using women's bathrooms and changing rooms (or likewise for men)?

Or should we 1) seek ways to minimise this sort of offending behaviour from happening (eg through education, monitoring and deterrence) and 2) seek to bring offenders to justice? I say this is the only correct way forward. And likewise, if trans people commit offences against cis people within places such as bathrooms and changing rooms, they should be brought to justice as well.
 
Given that this is such a hot button issue, I'm sure they will have made a statement somewhere explaining how they were able to determine that trans-women are in fact women. Or is "essence of woman" a secret? When you find that explanation, please share it.


Yes, they just came to their current conclusions on this subject completely randomly and arbitrarily. Obviously.

One might as well also ask how the world's experts were able to determine that homosexuality is a valid condition, rather than (as was previously believed) a deviancy and mental health deficiency. Must one demand similar "evidence" on an issue such as this? And that without such "evidence", is it appropriate to dismiss the experts' opinion on the matter and continue regarding gay people as mentally ill?
 
It is not about trans, it is about MALES



We do not have "gender specific" spaces, we have SEX specific spaces. SEX. A thing that is real and has a material impact on our lives, and the basis of a massive amount of abuse, discrimination, and hatred directed at females. Not because of some nebulous "gender" but because of our very real SEX.

Do me a favor. Take a moment and reframe your argument. Make the same argument for why we shouldn't smear every male with the crimes committed by males, and why therefore, females should be required to allow males into their intimate spaces including prisons. Tell me why teenage females are bigots if they don't let males into their showers and locker rooms, just because *some* males are predators.


Some females are predators against females.

Some males are predators against males.

We should therefore probably ban all females from female bathrooms/changing rooms, and all males from male bathrooms/changing rooms.
 
First off, females do not get aroused by hearing other females pee. Males with sexual fetishes get aroused by hearing females pee.

Because women are too pure to have sex fetishes? Hahahaha!

Pee fetishes are common, even among women.

Secondly, regardless of how they identify, they are still males. And yes, a male being sexually aroused in a female-only intimate space is a much bigger risk than a female being aroused in a female-only intimate space.

On a fundamental level this argument is about whether the word "woman" should include trans-women and if the word "men" should include trans-men. So stating that it doesn't is an example of begging the question.

Third, your position is one that disallows basic reasonable safeguarding for females, and leans on "well, after those females have already been harmed, then we'll think about maybe doing something about it". Why not prevent the harm in the first place?

Your position is that all trans-people should be suspect because a small number of them have behaved inappropriately.

I think if word gets around that trans-women who abuse their position in a shelter will be expelled and prosecuted will be enough to eliminate the vast majority of the abuses. Will it eliminate all of them? No, but neither will it smear an entire class of people with a profound bigotry,

Fourth, THIS IS ALREADY HAPPENING AND IT IS NOT BEING DEALT WITH. So your hollow promise of "it's already illegal" is pointless sophistry. FFS, a female patient, on a female-only hospital ward, was raped by a male patient who was housed there. The staff lied to the female and gaslit them for over a year despite there being footage of the assault... because their policy was that "transwomen are women" so there was no man there to do the raping in the first place.

Then the staff of that hospital behaved terribly. If for no other reason than failing to acknowledge women can rape other women.

If you want to claim we must discriminate against trans-people or tolerate trans-women raping other women in hospitals...that’s a false choice.
 
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