Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

Discourse is full of "How many legs does a dog have if you call a leg a tail" and "Do we have five fingers on each hand or four fingers and a thumb?" style disagreements. That's not what this is.

Don't forget the "humans aren't a bipedal species because some people are born without legs and some people get into accidents and lose their legs, so legs is really a spectrum" arguments.

 

[Boudicca90]

I have a partial solution for single-gender facilities that no one will like. (Not a solution to "who's a woman," just one narrow issue). It involves observing privacy etiquette when possible. I realize in some cultures it doesn't matter to anyone, but I'm not talking about them.

I would post notices in locker rooms saying this is a single-gender facility and asking people to respect communal modesty. Also include a way to reach staff members if stakeholders feel they must report problem behaviors. I wouldn't necessarily list all the behaviors, but examples would be available in writing and they would be based on what people do, not who they are.

In itself, this process may feel like a violation of some people's rights, but it does accommodate a variety of concerns. Everyone gives something up; no one gets to have everything they want. Facilities managers would need training in how to manage complaints, or perhaps this would be outsourced to specialists in mediating gender issues. Behavior accepted by everyone would not generate complaints.

A lot of people are shy and IMO it's just good manners not to either gawk or gratuitously flash body parts. My experience with group nudity is: As a young girl I had sex-separated PE with open, communal showers. I wasn't crazy about it, but there might have been value in seeing a variety of bodies. As an adult, most women I saw in locker rooms seemed to have a middling acceptance of partial nudity. If I'd been swimming, I would want to rinse my suit off as well, and the showers had partitioned stalls with hooks or benches. I'd rinse off, then wrap a towel around my waist or my body and finish the drying-off, hair-styling or makeup-applying routine at the sinks or by a locker, without either obsessively covering my body or going out of my way to flaunt it. I wouldn't, for example, set up camp in a middle bench and ostentatiously air-dry my private parts. I might use the locker door to create a visual privacy zone.

That may sound unreasonably prudish to some people, but even when traveling with a female friend, we both seem to observe such etiquette. Now I live with my mom, and we both seem to follow the "rules." But I had an aunt and cousin who routinely took off their tops and bras when home alone (with each other, I mean). I much prefer not to be fully dressed when I live alone. Partly to keep pet hair off my clothes

I for one totally support this! I don't like being naked around other people, especially strangers, of any gender. I want there to be more private changing rooms and less open communal spaces because of that, and I would still feel that way if I wasn't trans.

I remember having to change for gym class in middle school and wearing my gym clothes under my regular ones so I wouldn't have to even show my underwear. I would have no problem with more strictly enforced etiquette in certain situations.

 

[Aber]

Not what it says in this (current) official document.....

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Perhaps if you read the whole document.

It's a cut and paste from Section 4.

 

[LondonJohn]

Btw: something proper to frame the debate around trans women in women's sport (which is to say, something removed from the hyperbolic, inflammatory and utterly misleading shouts of "TERF!" and "transphobe!"...)

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/695

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah but that’s what it is. A completely internal concept. And one of the confounding factors is some people don’t care about making that match more closely with others’ expectations of what that means, and some people care a lot (and everything in between). Another confounding factor is that everyone has their own feelings about what that means in the first place.

Okay, it's internal. Now... what if that person who by any objective standard is right handed, but who identifies as left-handed, wants to get treated as left-handed by having you purchase extra sets of left-handed scissors, left-handed desks, and wants to be eligible to be president of the school's "lefties society"?

Where is the line between not interfering (or frankly caring) what a person thinks of themselves internally... and being obligated to interact with them based on their internal belief in opposition to observable facts, even when that internal belief infringes on other people?


ETA: A while back, JoeMorgue brought up people who identify as "transabled". I don't personally care how they identify, and if they want to live their life in a disabled way, that's fine. But I'm not so sure that they should be able to obligate the rest of society to give them handicapped parking because they identify as disabled even though they're physically able-bodied. And I don't think they should be allowed to compete in Special Olympics. And I don't think they should count as a disabled person for corporate diversity objectives.

 

[Paul2]

Definately. I wouldn't know how to define it or explain it, but I know I would still feel that mis-match between my body and mind.

Thanks! And, that mis-match involves genitalia, correct? If not, what part of the body is involved in the mis-match? Perhaps is more general than isolated to a discrete body part or part. Do you have any sense of how most trans folk would answer that question?

 

[Boudicca90]

And I'm happy to listen to reasonable argument as to why, on balance, it's likely to do more good than (potential) harm to offer affirmative therapies and interventions at a young-adolescent age. As I say, I'm instinctively inclined to think that - even though I recognise fully that an unwillingness to go down the "conversion therapy" route at these ages might result in increased anguish and distress for the person concerned - this may be more than offset by the risk of taking vulnerable and confused adolescents down roads from which it is difficult or impossible to reverse.

But I'm open-minded.

On the other hand, I'm not so keen on hectoring and debate-by-demand, which is why I won't be engaging with those parties any longer

The compromise has been hormone blockers until they are considered old enough to decide for themselves if they want to continue transition. I personally have always considered that somewhat cruel, and the better option would be to let them choose what kind of puberty they want to go through from the very start. But now there are people saying even hormone blockers are too much.

The first time I tried to kill myself was when I was 16, because I wanted to transition and become a woman so badly, but we hadn't really progressed to a point where it was acceptable at that point in time. There will be people who regret it and that is perfectly fine, but they should have the opportunity. And I consider it important to affirm the gender they truly are, even if it may be a while before they can actually transition. I'm against any kind of conversion therapy to try to "fix" us.

 

[Boudicca90]

Thanks! And, that mis-match involves genitalia, correct? If not, what part of the body is involved in the mis-match? Perhaps is more general than isolated to a discrete body part or part. Do you have any sense of how most trans folk would answer that question?

That is more up to the individual. I personally don't see genitals as very important to gender, but there are plenty of us who do.

I don't particularly like having a penis, but I can live with it. Others can't stand even looking at it or touching it and want it gone ASAP.

That is why I always say there is no one-size-fits-all approach to dealing with dysphoria.

 

[Emily's Cat]

One more time:

It was not meant as an analogy in the sense of "cow/horse" vs "man/woman".

It was meant as an examination of what qualities, behaviours, appearances, traits, etc define (for us) a "horse", or a "cow" (and what is it that makes us able to differentiate between them).


I might just as easily have chosen "cow" and "suitcase". The objects themselves were unimportant. It was "what is it that makes them what they are?" that was important.

*Sigh* Okay, I'll play.

A horse is a four-legged animal with solid hooves, long legs, a long head, a mane down the back of it's neck, and having a short extension of it's spine that extends beyond its rump and is typically covered in long hairs. They have high muscle density on their legs, and a relatively flat back. The ears of a horse are generally forward facing when relaxed, but are mobile allowing for good hearing in nearly 360 degrees. Horses have a distinctive gait pattern set, depending on the speed at which they're moving, generally classified as walk, trot, canter, and gallop. In the wild, horses form herds of approximately five to twelve members, often with only one male present.
Herds, however, may share territory among several bands without conflict outside of challenges to the stallion during mating season. Contrary to many assumptions, the main authority figure in a herd is generally a mature mare, not the stallion. Female horses (mares) have teats that are substantially smooth against their abdomens, except for the period immediately after birthing a foal, when they are feeding that foal breast milk. Male horses (stallions) are slightly bigger then mares, and have a penis that extends in a furred sheath between their hind legs, and external testicles.

Alright, now that I've described what makes a horse, as requested... please describe what makes a woman a woman, or a man a man.

 

[Minoosh]

I for one totally support this! I don't like being naked around other people, especially strangers, of any gender. I want there to be more private changing rooms and less open communal spaces because of that, and I would still feel that way if I wasn't trans.

I remember having to change for gym class in middle school and wearing my gym clothes under my regular ones so I wouldn't have to even show my underwear. I would have no problem with more strictly enforced etiquette in certain situations.

At age 13, I took AP chemistry to get out of mandatory PE. I think I was just too lazy to change, plus it's freakin' hot here.

As far as modesty, I once knew a girl with inverted nipples. That was interesting, because I didn't particularly like my nipples; they were like my mom's ... ordinarily flaccid. The ladies in skin magazines never had flaccid nipples, but I did remember that one girl from eighth grade.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's not controversial at all.

But it's also not applicable to the debate. Because the whole reason why the debate has these frames of reference is precisely because of the expectation that there is now, and will be for the forseeable future, a society in which the overwhelming majority of the "woman" gender is inhabited by (biological) females, and the overwhelming majority of the "man" gender is inhabited by (biological) males.

There's a distinction between the genders now. And I don't think that anyone in the debate (the global debate) has any doubt that the distinction between the genders will remain for our lifetimes and well beyond (as a minimum).

Also because females have unequal treatment in our society, so when male people desire to be treated as women, and access limited tools and services that are intended to address those inequities, there's a conflict of objectives. At some point, we need to make a decision about whether a person's internal view of themselves divorced from biology allows their belief to override the facts of females.

 

[TomB]

No. In the context of gender identity, one uses "female" to refer to biological attributes, and "woman" to refer to gender attributes (and expectations).

As for your "square" example, well of course the "societal expectations" subcategory isn't applicable. But it is applicable to gender definitions.

I think what Joe is getting at is this:

1) He treats everyone the same and makes no gendered judgements or expectations on them.
2) As a result, he treats people who call themselves men and people who call themselves women exactly the same.
3) Therefore it is impossible for him to treat a trans woman as a woman and not as a man.

I think this flows from a type of feminism that wants to eliminate gender roles for everyone. In other words, a goal of feminism is that there are no gender roles and gendered differences. To him there would be know roles or behaviors that can really be defined as “if men” or “of women.” The only differences that remain are differences in sex rather than gender. Biologically based. Thus it follows that:

1) Sports are not segregated by gender, they are segregated by sex.
2) If there are to be segregated spaces, they should be motivated by biological (sex related) reasons, not gender related needs.

I should point out that this is my interpretation of Joes position based on what I recall of his posts. And my extension of that interpretation.

Obviously, there ARE still gender roles and expectations. But it seems to me that we are moving towards knocking those down and moving towards a post-gender society. Some examples: It is more acceptable for a male to be a stay at home parent. One of my former coworkers did that when his wife took a job at a University in Indiana. The sexes are dressing more alike. Or rather, the wardrobes available to women have expanded to include everything in the male wardrobe. (Male wardrobes have yet to move in the other direction.) Males have started to wear some makeup. Particularly eyeliner and fingernail polish. (This mostly happens in punk/goth/emo subcultures, but still...). Many women are wearing less or no makeup. Men are “manscaping” while some women are eschewing the removal of body hair. The nurse at the ER when I took my wife last week was male. The doctor was female.

It occurs to me that feminist women want to tear down gender roles and expectations. So is it surprising when they push back at things being defined by gender?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Transwomen want to be women because they have an inherent feeling that they are actually women which has not been caused by anything external.

And we're back to the start: what is that internal feeling, and what do they perceive "women" to feel like? What makes them identify that feeling as being one of "woman" and not "man" or hell, "jelly bean"? How does the term woman get defined in such a way that it is representative of what a transwoman feels internally and is not caused by something external?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I mean, I'm 5'8" and a little overweight, but even being 5'8" makes me smaller than many men. I've only lived as a woman for a couple years but I've already had my share of guys trying to grope me without my permission or making lewd comments out of nowhere or dismissing my concerns because i'm a woman. And yes, because I wasn't raised as a woman, this is all new to me even though I've been told this by my female friends for forever at this point, lol. It's different experiencing it for yourself.

And since I started dating, or trying to anyway, I have had to deal with men looking for only sex. I just stopped talking to a guy because he would not stop bringing up sex no matter what we talked about. When I told him I was a virgin and I needed to take things slow, he just kept bringing up sexual questions and comments. He didn't respect me enough to stop, so I ended things. There were also some red flags that suggested he might be a tranny chaser and only interested in sex from me because of that.

When I said "slight of build" I wasn't necessarily meaning height so much as musculature.

But yeah - welcome to the experience of being a woman. So how do we (all humans interested in equity) make all of that kind of ******** go away?

ETA: Also, estrogen will make you gain weight. Biologically speaking, females need more body fat in order to support gestating and feeding an infant.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes it is. These are all positions and opinion Rolfe and a few others have put forward, that we are all delusional men trying to steal women's spaces and rights. She seems to be against any gender affirming therapy or treatments and think we should all just live with the gender that was chosen for us. She also seems to think there is some grand conspiracy in the medical and psychiatric fields that is driving all of this.

I would definitely call all that extreme, but she is a perfect example of TERF ideology and propaganda.

Even Rolfe hasn't suggested that all transgender people will grow out of it or get over it. Even she has recognized that some people will not. She seemed fine with full transsexuals.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I read "wanting to be X" as a conscious, maybe even deliberative, decision, whereas "feeling I'm actually X" is not conscious, is intuitive, something you don't have to think about. An intuitive, automatic feeling not mediated by anything conscious or rational is undeniably authentic. You can't fake it, whereas your rational thinking can go astray quite easily.

I get what you're saying... but I still end up back at wondering how any person can intuitively, automatically, and subconsciously feel like something that they have never been, never experienced, and cannot explain?

What's the meaningful difference between a person who says "I want to be a giraffe" and someone who says "I feel like I'm actually a giraffe"?

What reads as a meaningful pair of statements to me would be “inherently feel like you are something” and “want others to see you as something.”

Alright... "I inherently feel like a giraffe" and "I want others to see me as a giraffe". Either way... how does this person know what a giraffe feels like, that they can identify as it?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think most transsexuals are born with a brain of the opposite sex, though I could be out of the loop on this.

Hey, hey, ladybrain! In the kitchen you go, no more math for you!

 

[theprestige]

(can men technically even be TERFs?)

Why not? On what technicality can men not be feminists?

In a world where a man doesn't even need a vagina to be a woman, on what possible axis of social justice would he need a vagina to be a feminist?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't mean to dismiss your concerns, but I really do think they are overblown. Instances of bad actors taking advantage of the system are few and far between.

You know how you mentioned that now that you're comfortable presenting as a woman and living as a woman, you find yourself having your concerns dismissed? You're telling me that my concerns aren't a big deal, and I'm just overreacting.

And not justification enough to limit our rights.

We're not limiting your rights. You are asking for an entitlement that males do not have access to. You aren't asking for other people to be prevented from doing something to you (like the right to not be denied employment or housing on the basis of your gender identity), you're asking for other people to be obligated to give you something.

The positions taken by "trans activists" are generally taken by most trans people, so I don't even know what you define as an activist in this sense.

'The set of transgender people and their allies that hold those positions, as opposed to the transgender people who do not hold that view (there are many) and the people who support transgender rights, but not entitlements.

We aren't exactly the same as cisgender people, and I recognize when that needs to be taken into consideration and I thought my compromises were reasonable and adequate to both protect our both of our rights. Like the case of that woman, she belongs in there but she should have the sense and respect for others to cover herself up. But even I seem to be too extreme for many people here when I've never thought of myself as so.

You say she should have the sense to cover herself, and I agree. Your view of "ought" is one that I personally find acceptable. From a legal perspective, however, the result was that the large number of girls who used that changing room were told that if they were made uncomfortable by the transwoman's lack of respect for others, then it was incumbent upon them to find somewhere else to change. Do you think that is a fair and reasonable outcome?

 

[Paul2]

That is more up to the individual. I personally don't see genitals as very important to gender, but there are plenty of us who do.

I don't particularly like having a penis, but I can live with it. Others can't stand even looking at it or touching it and want it gone ASAP.

That is why I always say there is no one-size-fits-all approach to dealing with dysphoria.

So was it a particular part of your body that was involved in the mis-match, or was it not discrete and more generalized?