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Tory cuts

I can see the logic, however my understanding was that the cost of means-testing was more than likely savings.
 
I'm not quite sure what to make of cuts to child benefit. On the one hand it seems reasonable to take it from well-off families since, as it was once memorably put to me, "if it's not means tested it means that rich gits like me get it and that's stupid". But I'm also taken by the argument that assessing household income isn't very helpful for some women who don't get any independent money from that pot; child benefit is paid directly to them and for some women it's really very useful indeed. I don't know how many women are in that position, though - nobody does, though, probably - and 15% of 12 billion is quite a handy amount to save.

Still, this cut is only the very tip of a particularly knobbly iceberg, and we're heading towards it at full steam with the watch distracted by some bloke from steerage copping a feel of the Quality and a hold brim-full of Egyptian mummies that are just about coming to the boil. Pretty soon it's going to be Every Man For Himself - and the worrying thing is that the Tories like it that way.

Edit:
George Osborne said:
"It's not a decision we've taken lightly, but given the scale of the debts Labour's left us with, and given they've left us with no plan and we've had to come up with proposals, we think this is fair.

Impeccable reasoning there.
 
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I can see the logic, however my understanding was that the cost of means-testing was more than likely savings.

If they are tying it into income tax rate then that avoids the necessity for means testing. Although that would mean people who "creatively" (i.e. immorally) avoid taxation will still get it.
 
...snip...

Still, this cut is only the very tip of a particularly knobbly iceberg, and we're heading towards it at full steam with the watch distracted by some bloke from steerage copping a feel of the Quality and a hold brim-full of Egyptian mummies that are just about coming to the boil. Pretty soon it's going to be Every Man For Himself - and the worrying thing is that the Tories like it that way.

Edit:


Impeccable reasoning there.

I remember when they first announced that the cabinet had agreed on a 5% pay cut to show their solidarity with other people facing cuts, I was a tad curious as to why they forgot to mention that "since most of us are multi-millionaires it will not have any financial impact on us".

So now of course they will be saying "look the wealthy are paying their 'fair share'", which of course ignores the relative value of a pound to the wealthy and the poor. A single pound "cut" for the poorest may be the difference between having electricity to the end of the week or not and they have already, proportionally hit the poorest with their first budget.
 
This is a crazy idea which has been drip fed by both sides for a really long time (for examples of labour supporters who have been helping with that feed see, for example, Polly Toynbee's many articles on the subject).

Universal benefits have many advantages. Take up is really good. That is not true for means tested benefits and there are many people who struggle to get by on less than they need because they do nor apply for means tested benefits: they often do not know about them: or they are shamed by the need to apply: lots of reasons. A lot of the research has been done on pensioners: but the problem applies across the board. This has been known forever: but as the second link shows it is hard to get a picture of the current take up because of the incredible speed and complexity of the changes to the benefits system over many years

https://lra.le.ac.uk/handle/2381/4416
http://php.york.ac.uk/inst/spru/research/summs/variations.php
http://www.cpag.org.uk/press/261006.htm

A second benefit has already been mentioned and was the original reason for the introduction of CB in the first place: it is paid directly to women, unlike the tax allowance which preceded it. It had to be a universal benefit because many women have time out of the work place when they have children: and so they had no tax to pay and no means of getting a credit. This matters because total financial dependency is nto a good thing even when things are going well: it is a disaster if your partner happens to be a gambler or a drug addict or whatever: CB is small buffer for the children in that situation. That is not to say that all who abuse the money intended for a family are men, btw: it is to say that children have a chance of having one relatively responsible parent: if it happens to be their mother there is not a lot she can do if she has no money coming in at all. And given that out of work benefits are means tested after 6 months that is her situation very often if the partner is in work: given they are paid to one partner, and that is by default the man when both are out of work the same problem applies. The claimant can be transferred for cause: but it is not often easy to do it.

That arises from another problem which has already been mentioned: means tested benefits are extremely expensive to administer. Universal benefits are not. That is one of the reasons the government is trying to unify tax and benefits and have them all eventually administered by HMRC. Unifying the system is not a bad idea in itself: if it was being done for the good reasons which exist I would support it. But it isn't. It is being done to save money.

I have some direct experience of the transfer of benefit administration to HMRC and I can assure you that it is a disaster for the poor. HMRC has no history of paying out. One of the consequences of that is they have no mechanisms for doing it. And another is that they have no sense of urgency at all. So if a person's child tax credit does not arrive, or needs to be changed, or whatever, there is no way to get an emergency payment: they don't have way of doing that. When benefits were dealt with by DSS (now DWP) they had local offices and they had money and they had a means of making emergency payments. It was humiliating but it was essential: gone. If the problem arises through tax credit the DWP won't help: they are not allowed to. And when you try to sort the problem out with HMRC they blithely say they will have it fixed in 6 weeks. And they can't or won't speed it up. I am friendly with some tax officers and they know it is rubbish (though it is a little better than it was when they started) and they are not happy about it. This is not a neutral act and it does not transfer a service from dept to another: it reduces the service to a one size fits all approach, which takes its own sweet time. The result is not a saving: it is a cost. But the cost is passed to local government because the social work department has to support families while this is going on. SWD is not a benefits agency nor is it a tax agency: it has no budget for this but it does have a legal obligation. It was this that led many SWD's to employ welfare rights officers and they did a great job in the past on take up and appeals etc: but in most cases where they were broadly successful (eg in addresssing take up) the government changed the law so that the outgoings did not rise for long. Still, the burden on SWD's did fall and it was worth while because the money was paid by the right dept, at least most of the time: that will no longer be true. SWD cannot pay out at benefit levels: and so I find myself back to a position of delivering bags of food to people who are desperate: I really resent that use of my time: and what it does to my relationship with those people: and the way it prevents me from doing my real job. Back to the days of the almoner and all that that entails. Way to humiliate people and to waste resources which should be going on other things and to blame the local authority for overspend and on and on and on. I am coming to hate my job because of this kind of thing amongst others.

There is another consequence: HMRC is already seriously underfunded and understaffed. That is not an accident and it increasing as well. It will get worse for they will have to take their share of cuts too. Billions of pounds are not collected in tax and this is also well known. Every tax inspector involved in enforcement brings in much much more money than they are paid in wages: I mean really a lot more. If the mantra that we should adopt private sector values into public service was actually true what would we do? I suggest we would continue to employ more tax inspectors until they income broke even with the costs of that employment. But we don't. I think that tells you something and it makes me spit, frankly. Lot of hand wringing about unpaid tax: not the simplest action to address it, though. Not following the private sector in that particular part of the forest. Combining tax and benefits will make that worse too: I wonder who the winners and losers will be? Not much of a mystery there, IMO

In recent years there was a move to include all income in the tax system and that included benefits (many years ago they were not taxed: now all but the universal benefits are). It is interesting that poor people's benefits count as income yet those which are also paid to the rich are not, isn't it? So are we going to change that? If we really must make savings there that is the way to go: it is universal so it is easy to count it as income and easy to tax it. As with other benefits we can assume it is claimed (and that assumption can be made even if a benefit is not claimed, but that is another topic). So we could tax universal benefits at 100% if we had such a tax band: but we can't because any suggestion of increasing tax in that way causes fits of the vapours. Not when such marginal rates of tax apply to the poor of course: we have lived quite happily with that and indeed we have used it to justify characterising them as feckles: they don't move into work because it is a "lifestyle choice". It is. It is exactly the same "life style choice" as rich people who move their money abroad to maximise their income make. But with rather more justification, again IMO. There is much talk of making sure that work pays: and all governments have made those noises and have done things to try to make it happen: but they have not set the minimum wage at a level which would achieve that: rather they have tended to either cut benefits below what is reasonable as a sum to live on (and they are really low and have been falling in real terms for most of the last thirty or forty years): or they have decided that the tax payer should top up wages thus driving good employers out of business if they do not also pay poverty wages. I welcome the minimum wage: but it is very far from a living wage for most. Yet propose it and business screams: suggest increasing it and the same happens: so I do not think that the idea of "ensuring work pays" is going to translate to a higher minimum wage: I will be pleasantly surprised if it does.
 
This is a crazy idea which has been drip fed by both sides for a really long time (for examples of labour supporters who have been helping with that feed see, for example, Polly Toynbee's many articles on the subject).

Universal benefits have many advantages. Take up is really good. That is not true for means tested benefits and there are many people who struggle to get by on less than they need because they do nor apply for means tested benefits: they often do not know about them: or they are shamed by the need to apply: lots of reasons. A lot of the research has been done on pensioners: but the problem applies across the board. This has been known forever: but as the second link shows it is hard to get a picture of the current take up because of the incredible speed and complexity of the changes to the benefits system over many years

You still have to apply for child benefit and I think the proposal is not for means testing as we see with other benefits but based on tax code. I presume the idea is to use the NI number or your tax code? But it will be interesting to see how they will do this without it costing as much to regulate as it saves - or more. Perhaps we'll need a new computer system....

...snip...

A second benefit has already been mentioned and was the original reason for the introduction of CB in the first place: it is paid directly to women, unlike the tax allowance which preceded it.

...snip...

Just on this - CB is not only paid to mothers it can be (and is) paid to fathers, usually when the child is looked after by the father. And I do think the argument behind the reason for it being paid to the mother has been weakened over the years partly because society has changed but mainly since it is no longer paid in cash.

ETA: Should add that the above are just some minor quibbles, Fiona has, with great eloquence, managed to express most of mine (and I believe a lot of other people) frustrations and concerns about the non-mandated revolution of the country that the Tories are trying to foist on us under the guise of "we have to cut the deficit" - it is now clear beyond any reasonable doubt that their changes are a matter of ideology, not what is best for society nor best for the country but what is the best for the few.
 
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...snip... Yet propose it and business screams: suggest increasing it and the same happens: so I do not think that the idea of "ensuring work pays" is going to translate to a higher minimum wage: I will be pleasantly surprised if it does.

Workhouses "ensured work pays", it is very easy to ensure "work pays", as you allude simply reduce benefits to such a degree that people will die, I suspect that is what we will see. And I am not being hysterical when I say people will die if the meagre benefits (for those unaware benefits in real terms for the poorest are less than in Thatcher years) are cut significantly and/or they have to spend more for the same (and the "emergency budget" has already assured that will be case), and by significantly I mean in the region of a couple of pounds per week. I really do think many folks do not understand how poor some people are, how impoverished their lives are at the moment.
 
You still have to apply for child benefit and I think the proposal is not for means testing as we see with other benefits but based on tax code. I presume the idea is to use the NI number or your tax code? But it will be interesting to see how they will do this without it costing as much to regulate as it saves - or more. Perhaps we'll need a new computer system....

Yes, you do have to apply for it, Darat. I did not express that well. However it is not the same as applying for a means tested benefit: you get it if you have a child and everybody gets it. It is more like registering a birth: like part of the same process. There is no stigma attached to it and there is no intrusive questioning or time wasting.

I just heard that they have announced it is to be abolished for high rate tax payers, so you are partly correct: but I believe that is only a step on the way: he has also said that he wants the middle class to stop claiming it: once the principle of non universality is established we will see further moves:means testing will follow, or so I think. He is waiting to see if the softening up has taken enough to avoid an outcry: I think it has because of this propaganda over years: so it is a thin end, IMO


Just on this - CB is not only paid to mothers it can be (and is) paid to fathers, usually when the child is looked after by the father.

Agreed: again I was less than precise. But the default position is it is paid to the mother. Ever tried changing that? I recently had a case where both parents were incapable of caring for their two children so we placed them with the grandparents. The grandparents thereby became entitled to the CB: and virtually ALL other benefits for children follow the CB. So they applied for the CB. They were told it takes 12 weeks to do that. So being reasonble people they accepted that and SWD had to help support them for that period of time. Sadly at the end of 12 weeks it emerged that the claim had been lost and so they had to apply again: and it took another 12 weeks. SWD had to pay for that period too. My negitiations with CB centre were wholly ineffective and deeply frustrating. It works well so long as nothing changes: not so good if the benefit needs to be transferred for any reason.

And I do think the argument behind the reason for it being paid to the mother has been weakened over the years partly because society has changed but mainly since it is no longer paid in cash.

I agree to some extent: a lot of women have work income or other sources: but a great many do not. The fact it is not paid in cash is a problem, certainly. But you can get a bank account and if you are in the worst position that is a lot easier than getting money already in the hands of a bookie :)
 
...snip...

I just heard that they have announced it is to be abolished for high rate tax payers, so you are partly correct: but I believe that is only a step on the way: he has also said that he wants the middle class to stop claiming it: once the principle of non universality is established we will see further moves:means testing will follow, or so I think. He is waiting to see if the softening up has taken enough to avoid an outcry: I think it has because of this propaganda over years: so it is a thin end, IMO

...snip...

Just been listening to the radio and I think you are right, not only are they removing the universality but they are quite deliberately making the resultant system very unfair, which I do suspect is politically motivated to help later on when it will be further dismantled. (The new system will mean that a couple with say a joint income of £80,000 a year will get CB, the single parent earning £44,001 won't.)

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And I've just heard on the radio about another politically motivated change, that a family will not be able to paid benefits above what the "average" household income would provide, a "benefit cap". I can see how this will be politically played, the Daily Mail will love it, but practically what difference will it make to the amount that is paid out in benefits? I suspect very little, the median average household income is around £25,000 so that works out at around £500 a week, how many families approach that amount on benefits - I suspect very, very few. Oh and of course it breaks the fundamental idea behind the "social contract" that we have had since the second world war, and that is benefits are meant to be about what is needed.
 
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You are apparently assuming that they will be honest about housing benefit, Darat: they never have been before, so why would they start now?
 
I was actually thinking more of an article for their Comment and Debate section, rather than as Mrs Trellis type of thing ;)
 
:)

You are very kind, Mr Dimbleby. But there are real journalists out there who could say the same better: it cannot be an accident they are not doing so in the papers
 
Well they've already capped that haven't they?

It has always been capped. The amount varies by region: the decision was subject to appeal before 2008: but not so easily now. It is now based on the local housing allowance and bears no relation to how much you actually pay: rather it is a decision of the rent officer. That decision may or may not reflect the real possibilities in your area.

It is like a lot of other things: there used to be a challenge available if you could not actually find accommodation at the price they are prepared to cover. That is, you had a practical element in the rules. Now that is irrelavant, so far as I can discover. If the rents in an area are "known" to be at a certain level then they set it around that average: no matter if any sitting tenants are holding the rents down and new property on the rental market is much much more expensive. And of course there is a lag in reviewing such things, at least as I have observed it.

Once again they have transferred the cost to the local authority: this time to the housing department.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index...g_benefit.htm#further_help_with_housing_costs

So the cap is not really a cap: it is a transfer of cost to local government which does not have a budget for it really
 
As the global economy collapses around them disaster capitalists will get ever more shameless with their window dressing.

This announcement is designed to lubricate the way for even more unpalatable Tory vandalism.
 

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