• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (part 3)

thaiboxerken said:
Listen guys, just because there is no evidence that supports the "good guy with a gun" argument and there is a cubic butt-ton of evidence that disproves it doesn't mean what you're saying is logical....
Click to expand...

After about twenty back and forth posts it'd turn out that you're using a totally straw version of some imaginary "good guy with a gun" argument or some fringe quote you found in the dusty corners of the Internet.

No thanks.
 
Change in Concealed Carry Law Did Not Drive Violent Crime in Ohio Cities, Study Shows

CJR-2023-graphic-01.aspx
 
Thermal said:
(But it's still way higher in Ohio than it is in Jersey, where there's no carry. Coincidence? Or something more?)
Click to expand...

I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
 
Last edited:
Trausti said:
I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I'm very sympathetic to the idea of people being able to defend themselves by any means at their disposal, and in particular, for a smallish woman who could be easily overpowered. I can't come up with any reason to tell her she should not be allowed to use lethal force to keep herself or her children safe, especially when she lacks the muscle to put up a fight.

But looking at the data, no carry simply works. Jersey has had it for generations, and we are way down at the bottom of the gun violence rankings. It's a tough metric to dispute. What will be instructive to see is when we (inevitably) revert to carry, what happens to our gun violence rate?
 
Thermal said:
But looking at the data, no carry simply works. Jersey has had it for generations, and we are way down at the bottom of the gun violence rankings. It's a tough metric to dispute. What will be instructive to see is when we (inevitably) revert to carry, what happens to our gun violence rate?
Click to expand...

It's really not about allowing / or disallowing. A criminal isn't going to care either way. Montana, New Hamsphire, Wyoming, Vermont, Idaho, etc., have high gun ownship and less intentional gun homicide than New Jersey. And in New Jersey, from what I can find, there are areas of high intentional gun homicide - namely the big cities - while the rest of the State is like Idaho. I'd doubt that in those gun homicide hot spots the perps are legally carrying. So allowing citizens to carry, with a permit or not, would probably not change the stats.
 
Trausti said:
It's really not about allowing / or disallowing. A criminal isn't going to care either way. Montana, New Hamsphire, Wyoming, Vermont, Idaho, etc., have high gun ownship and less intentional gun homicide than New Jersey. And in New Jersey, from what I can find, there are areas of high intentional gun homicide - namely the big cities - while the rest of the State is like Idaho. I'd doubt that in those gun homicide hot spots the perps are legally carrying. So allowing citizens to carry, with a permit or not, would probably not change the stats.
Click to expand...

True enough, regarding cities being the hot spots for shootings, but Idaho? This is the State with the nation's highest population density, and the only one where every single county is designated "urban". Sparsely populated potato farms, we're not.

My concern is from knowing my fellow Jerseyans. Not crazy about the idea of my beloved yahoo citizenry suddenly being allowed to carry and discovering a new way to resolve conflicts that up till now only resulted in broken noses. I mean, give a brother a hammer and he's a-gonna be looking to do something with it.
 
Thermal said:
My concern is from knowing my fellow Jerseyans. Not crazy about the idea of my beloved yahoo citizenry suddenly being allowed to carry and discovering a new way to resolve conflicts that up till now only resulted in broken noses. I mean, give a brother a hammer and he's a-gonna be looking to do something with it.
Click to expand...

But they could do that anyway, regardless of the law. Gun restriction laws only harm law-abidding people because those are the people who'll follow them.
 
"A criminal isn't going to care" assumes that the gun is easy to get. This is because of the absolute overabundance of guns in American culture.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
After about twenty back and forth posts it'd turn out that you're using a totally straw version of some imaginary "good guy with a gun" argument or some fringe quote you found in the dusty corners of the Internet.

No thanks.
Click to expand...
Errr, no, not a logic fail at all.

Our news reports here said that there were "at least" 800 armed active police on duty managing the crowds, and that Missouri gun laws allow open carry so it was likely some of the civilians were armed.

The NRA "good guy with a gun" meme has been around for ages, which I'm sure you know. It is specifically used to justify to the gun-nuts that an armed populace is a polite, safe populace. It has been echoed by the wingnuts like Bobert and EmptyG regularly, in support of 2A rights and open carry. (Colorado Barbie especially - she likes to pack heat herself.)

I was not the first to raise the failure of this meme either. But it was glaringly obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense that it had no basis in reality.

So no. No logic fail for the Missouri shooting. It proves this stupid meme is so badly wrong that it costs lives.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Errr, no, not a logic fail at all.

Our news reports here said that there were "at least" 800 armed active police on duty managing the crowds, and that Missouri gun laws allow open carry so it was likely some of the civilians were armed.

The NRA "good guy with a gun" meme has been around for ages, which I'm sure you know. It is specifically used to justify to the gun-nuts that an armed populace is a polite, safe populace. It has been echoed by the wingnuts like Bobert and EmptyG regularly, in support of 2A rights and open carry. (Colorado Barbie especially - she likes to pack heat herself.)

I was not the first to raise the failure of this meme either. But it was glaringly obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense that it had no basis in reality.

So no. No logic fail for the Missouri shooting. It proves this stupid meme is so badly wrong that it costs lives.
Click to expand...

This is your attempt at starting the 20 back and forth that I mentioned. What you're referring to as the "good guy with a gun meme" will end up being some silly straw man.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
This is your attempt at starting the 20 back and forth that I mentioned.
Click to expand...
No. Also, don't care if it does.

What you're referring to as the "good guy with a gun meme" will end up being some silly straw man.
Click to expand...
OK, the facts of a very real situation are just...what, a strawman? But you don't want to address, just be a soothsayer. No wuckers for me, mate.
 
Trausti said:
I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
Click to expand...

And yet, in Canada where handguns are very difficult to get and concealed carry all but illegal, violent crime is much worse than in the United States:
  • Murder rate per million people: 3 times that of Canada
  • Rapes per million people: 16 times that of Canada
  • Murders committed by youth per million: 6 times that of Canada

It's almost as if everyone having a gun is more dangerous.

Source: www . nationmaster . com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom