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Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (part 3)

Hercules56 said:
I have some bad news for you: We will not ban guns in the USA. The current trajectory in the USA is for looser gun laws, not stronger.

Maybe in 30 years things will be different.

That's why we need to focus on other solutions, especially when dealing with mass-shootings.
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Why do you need solutions? The majority of Americans think dead kids are a cheap price, well worth paying for the ability of others to enjoy their sport.
 
Lothian said:
Why do you need solutions? The majority of Americans think dead kids are a cheap price, well worth paying for the ability of others to enjoy their sport.
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Mass-shootings are a bad phenomenon. We should try to find ways to reduce them.
 
Steve said:
Re-defining them to reduce their numbers in the statistics seems to work for some.
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WashPo, Mother Jones and the DoJ never redefined anything. Folks with a political agenda expanded and loosened the definition 15 years ago for political reasons.
 
Hercules56 said:
Your accusations against the DoJ, Mother Jones and the Washington Post are sad, but understandable. Everything is totally political these days. Anyone who has a different standard or definition is attacked and vilified.
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I have not attacked or vilified anyone. Instead, I have explained why mass SHOOTING should be defined, in the USA, as a SHOOTING and the mass discharge of bullets. That is different from a mass KILLING.

If anyone in the western world went out and started to shoot and discharged many bullets at people, even if they hit no one, it would be regarded as a serious, major news, reviewable incident. Questions would be asked of the police as to how that person had got hold of a gun and so many bullets. That person would be facing years in prison.

That is just for a SHOOTING, where no one was hit at all. If people were hit, injured, killed, then the seriousness would go up to the highest level.

You and other US sources are wanting to only concentrate on the most serious, where 4 or more are KILLED and ignore the rest, as if they somehow do not count as mass SHOOTINGS.

This thread is about mass SHOOTINGS, not just mass KILLINGS. Concentrating on the latter and ignoring the former, is one of the many reasons why the USA has failed at gun control and is doomed to make the same mistakes again and again.

You, MJ, the Washington Post are wrong to just concentrate on one part of the problem.
 
Hercules56 said:
Mass-shootings are a bad phenomenon. We should try to find ways to reduce them.
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Which you will not be able to do, if you exclude most mass shootings from the statistics.

In any case, the USA cannot do anything about mass shootings, because so many unsuitable people have guns and there is such a strong resistance to even stop them from having such weapons.

You are better developing a coping strategy. Part of your coping strategy is to talk about mass shootings, but only mean mass killings, so that you can pretend a large part of the problem does not exist.
 
Nessie said:
...I have explained why mass SHOOTING should be defined, in the USA, as a SHOOTING and the mass discharge of bullets. That is different from a mass KILLING...This thread is about mass SHOOTINGS, not just mass KILLINGS. Concentrating on the latter and ignoring the former, is one of the many reasons why the USA has failed at gun control and is doomed to make the same mistakes again and again...
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The above is pretty much what I believe.
 
Nessie said:
Which you will not be able to do, if you exclude most mass shootings from the statistics.

In any case, the USA cannot do anything about mass shootings, because so many unsuitable people have guns and there is such a strong resistance to even stop them from having such weapons.

You are better developing a coping strategy. Part of your coping strategy is to talk about mass shootings, but only mean mass killings, so that you can pretend a large part of the problem does not exist.
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First reading I read that as unstable. Works quite well either way.
 
Nessie said:
This thread is about mass SHOOTINGS, not just mass KILLINGS. Concentrating on the latter and ignoring the former, is one of the many reasons why the USA has failed at gun control and is doomed to make the same mistakes again and again.
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By your definition, if a 4th of July celebrator unloads a drum magazine into the air and one round comes down and kills someone, it would be a mass shooting.
 
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Skeptical Greg said:
By your definition, if a 4th of July celebrator unloads a drum magazine into the air and one round comes down and kills someone, it would be a mass shooting.
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What is wrong with that being a mass shooting? Someone was an idiot with a gun, fired off a lot of bullets, and another died.

Anywhere else, and that would be considered a major incident, likely followed by a major enquiry into why the shooter was allowed to have a gun and that many bullets. If it happened in the UK, it would likely be followed by calls to further restrict ownership of guns.

Only in the USA would an incident like that not cause even a ripple of reflection and consideration. That is how bad it is in the USA compared to every other country that is comparable.
 
Mother Jones says the problem consists of 11 mass shootings so far in 2023. The site Mass Shooting Tracker says there have been 668 mass shootings. My point that both ignore a lot of other shootings, involving people firing multiple shots at others and the true extent of the problem is greater still. There could be thousands of incidents where people have gone mad with guns, shot at multiple people, by luck not hit anyone, and we do not even know about them.
 
Nessie said:
What is wrong with that being a mass shooting? Someone was an idiot with a gun, fired off a lot of bullets, and another died.

Anywhere else, and that would be considered a major incident, likely followed by a major enquiry into why the shooter was allowed to have a gun and that many bullets. If it happened in the UK, it would likely be followed by calls to further restrict ownership of guns.

Only in the USA would an incident like that not cause even a ripple of reflection and consideration. That is how bad it is in the USA compared to every other country that is comparable.
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But remember, it's better than in Haiti.
 
Nessie said:
Mother Jones says the problem consists of 11 mass shootings so far in 2023. The site Mass Shooting Tracker says there have been 668 mass shootings. My point that both ignore a lot of other shootings, involving people firing multiple shots at others and the true extent of the problem is greater still. There could be thousands of incidents where people have gone mad with guns, shot at multiple people, by luck not hit anyone, and we do not even know about them.
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In America if the shooting victims/targets survive it does not count.
 
Nessie said:
Which you will not be able to do, if you exclude most mass shootings from the statistics.

In any case, the USA cannot do anything about mass shootings, because so many unsuitable people have guns and there is such a strong resistance to even stop them from having such weapons.

You are better developing a coping strategy. Part of your coping strategy is to talk about mass shootings, but only mean mass killings, so that you can pretend a large part of the problem does not exist.
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If we consider the Columbine and VT massacres to be the same kind of event as a gang banger drive-by in LA, we will never be able to tackle mass-shootings.
 
newyorkguy said:
The Post, USA Today and DOJ use the term 'mass killing,' while Mother Jones uses 'mass shooting.'
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Yes, Hercules56 appears to be quite confused concerning the distinction between mass shootings and mass killings.

Hercules56 said:
You are right. 12 mass-shootings in the USA in one year, following the wise and intelligent definition of the DoJ, Mother Jones and the Washington Post, is indeed a terrible tragedy. Hopefully sociologists, criminologists and politicians can come together to deal with this phenomenon, that is truly different than some gang-banger or bank robber shooting 4+ people.
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It seems Hercules56 is simply wrong concerning definitions used by the organizations I highlighted.

As for the DoJ, he has referred to a federal law that defines a mass killing as "3 or more killings in a single incident", but does not define the concept of a mass shooting.

As for the Washington Post, Wikipedia says
Mass Shooting Tracker, a crowdsourced data site cited by CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Economist, the BBC, etc., defines a mass shooting as any incident in which four or more people are shot, whether injured or killed .​
and goes on to say
Crime violence research group Gun Violence Archive, whose research is used by major American media outlets, defines a mass shooting as having a "minimum of four victims shot, either injured or killed , not including any shooter who may also have been killed or injured in the incident," differentiating between a mass shooting and mass murder and not counting shooters as victims.​
With the exception of Mother Jones, it seems the organizations Hercules56 has accused of using his own stupid definition of mass shooting are not guilty of that charge.

Nessie said:
You and other US sources are wanting to only concentrate on the most serious, where 4 or more are KILLED and ignore the rest, as if they somehow do not count as mass SHOOTINGS.

This thread is about mass SHOOTINGS, not just mass KILLINGS. Concentrating on the latter and ignoring the former, is one of the many reasons why the USA has failed at gun control and is doomed to make the same mistakes again and again.
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Yes, and those who persist in proclaiming their own personal confusion regarding the distinction between mass shootings and mass killings should be called out for their disinformation.

Steve said:
Nessie said:
Mother Jones says the problem consists of 11 mass shootings so far in 2023. The site Mass Shooting Tracker says there have been 668 mass shootings. My point that both ignore a lot of other shootings, involving people firing multiple shots at others and the true extent of the problem is greater still. There could be thousands of incidents where people have gone mad with guns, shot at multiple people, by luck not hit anyone, and we do not even know about them.
Click to expand...

In America if the shooting victims/targets survive it does not count.
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