Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[mgidm86]

And more people need to care as well. People are fighting against gun laws so what's the government to do?

I'm surrounded. The Half Moon Bay shooting is just north of me, yesterday's shootings well to the south, same state.

California is way up there in shootings by the way, just check the LA Times daily shootings page.

Garlic festival was few years ago, 15 miles from me. 3 killed, 17 wounded.

Car dealership in Morgan Hill, employee shooting. 3 miles from me.

I need a gun to protect myself from other gun owners, **** the actual criminals! I may be more likely to be shot by some random ******* than someone committing a crime like burglary.

Surely the 2nd amendment must do more good than bad or we wouldn't have it?

The importance of any guaranteed right should be damn easy to explain and far outweigh the consequences of not having it.

Anyone care to try? This is stupidity beyond belief as far as I can tell, where am I wrong?

 

[jeremyp]

Next time someone uses the "car analogy" make sure they know that it is an argument against gun ownership:

If cars are just as efficient as guns for killing then we may as well get rid of all the guns right now.

It won’t work. Cars are fairly tightly regulated, even in America.

 

[Ian Osborne]

It won’t work. Cars are fairly tightly regulated, even in America.

Exactly. You have to reach a certain age before you can drive a car. The car has to be serviced and checked regularly, and it needs to be insured. You have to pass a test before you can drive, and your government-issued licence can be revoked at any time if you misbehave with your car. And people bring up the fact that cars kill as an argument against gun regulation.

 

[dann]

A good guy without a gun: Surveillance footage shows hero confronting suspected gunman (CNN, Jan 24, 2023)

 

[jeremyp]

Exactly. You have to reach a certain age before you can drive a car. The car has to be serviced and checked regularly, and it needs to be insured. You have to pass a test before you can drive, and your government-issued licence can be revoked at any time if you misbehave with your car. And people bring up the fact that cars kill as an argument against gun regulation.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if you made gun owners financially liable for the damage done by their guns. So somebody gets shot with your gun: you are on the hook for the some proportion of the medical expenses - no matter who pulled the trigger. This would mean that gun owners would be effectively required to carry insurance and the cost/availability of that insurance would be determined by how well you secured your gun when not being carried.

You may argue that such a law is unconstitutional, but I don't think it would be any more of an infringement of the second amendment the the libel law is an infringement on the first amendment.

 

[Ryokan]

Well, from a cold and neutral point of view, it's actually not that big of a deal.
For a country which has roughly 100.000.000 more guns than cars.
About 40.000 death by firearms (homicide + suicide) vs ~45.000 death by car - per year.
Cars are still more deadly. If you want to kill someone, use a car. Better chance of success.

From a cold and neutral point of view, cars are required for civilization as we know it to function. Most of the deaths are accidental, and are seen as acceptable for the function they serve.

Guns (in civillian hands), on the other hand...

 

[carlosy]

From a cold and neutral point of view, cars are required for civilization as we know it to function. Most of the deaths are accidental, and are seen as acceptable for the function they serve.

Guns (in civillian hands), on the other hand...

But but... how are you gonna stop the government just with your well-motorized militia?

Oh and imagine society/civilization in the US without guns?
Absolutely dysfunctional.

 

[Armitage72]

I suspect that a mass shooting event where many rich people are killed, will result in the law being changed...

... Or maybe I'm just really cynical.

Kind of like when Republicans and the NRA supported gun control laws in the 1960s when it was Black Panthers carrying them.

 

[Bob001]

Kind of like when Republicans and the NRA supported gun control laws in the 1960s when it was Black Panthers carrying them.

It's worth noting that the current interpretation of the Constitution to allow a gun in every pocket is relatively recent. For most of our history, there has been no question that firearms, particularly handguns, could be regulated by governments at all levels.

Chief Justice Burger, nobody's idea of a liberal, famously said this:

"If I were writing the Bill of Rights now there wouldn’t be any such thing as the Second Amendment, that a well regulated militia being necessary for the defense of the state, that people (have the) right to bear arms. This has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my life time."

He continues, "Now just look at those words. There are only three lines to that amendment. A well regulated militia. It’s the militia which was going to be the state army, was going to be well regulated. Why shouldn’t 16, 17 or 18 year olds, or any other age persons, be regulated in the use of arms, the way an automobile is regulated? It’s got to be registered. Someone asked me recently if I was for or against a bill which was pending in Congress calling for five days waiting period. I said ‘Yes, I’m very much against it. It should be a 30-day waiting period, ‘till they find out why this person needs a handgun or a machine gun.’"

https://www.berkshireeagle.com/news...cle_ee5b6464-4006-5aa0-8fe7-ab9b475cfa5b.html
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/nra-guns-second-amendment-106856/

 

[Stacyhs]

If we wanted to discuss the latest mass shooting in this ******up country, we'd have to continually check our watches

But we don't have a gun problem, do we? Naaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh.

 

[mgidm86]

It won’t work. Cars are fairly tightly regulated, even in America.

But most guns used in crimes are stolen. Cars are stolen every day.

Exactly. You have to reach a certain age before you can drive a car. The car has to be serviced and checked regularly, and it needs to be insured. You have to pass a test before you can drive, and your government-issued licence can be revoked at any time if you misbehave with your car. And people bring up the fact that cars kill as an argument against gun regulation.

Same answer. And my point is that it actually is not an argument against regulation at all, they only think it is.

It's stupid either way. There's really nothing left for me to say on this forum about guns that I already haven't. I guess I will try to avoid it from now on. I mean tomorrow is another shooting, same rants.

 

[Sherkeu]

If we wanted to discuss the latest mass shooting in this ******up country, we'd have to continually check our watches

But we don't have a gun problem, do we? Naaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh.

Technically, there was yet another mass shooting, in California, about an hour after the Half Moon Bay shooter was put in custody. These gang-related ones are just not as widespread in the news, and because it is a gang, the details are often kept to a minimum. The nbc article has the most detail I found.

Oakland police fear deadly music video shooting could fuel more bloodshed

Multiple shooters opened fire on dozens of people filming a music video in a deadly Northern California gang attack that Oakland police fear will spark retaliatory bloodshed, authorities said Tuesday.

The latest mass shooting unfolded in the 5900 block of MacArthur Boulevard just after 6 p.m. PT Monday as bullets struck five people, killing 18-year-old Mario Navarro-Navarro, police said.

Between 40 and 50 people were at the scene “where individuals were filming a music video,” acting Oakland Police Chief Darren Allison told reporters.

“While the recording was occurring, gunfire broke out from multiple shooters in various directions," Allison said.

 

[jeremyp]

But most guns used in crimes are stolen. Cars are stolen every day.




Same answer. And my point is that it actually is not an argument against regulation at all, they only think it is.

It's stupid either way. There's really nothing left for me to say on this forum about guns that I already haven't. I guess I will try to avoid it from now on. I mean tomorrow is another shooting, same rants.

If guns were properly regulated, fewer of them would be stolen.

 

[Lurch]

US society has quite deliberately designed for itself a self perpetuating system of gun proliferation. It only required a critical mass of killing tools to be introduced as the catalyst. With the 'criminal set' now having such easy access, the 'law abiding set' must have even more unfettered access as a counterweight. More guns to steal, more needed by the good guys. And so goes the spiraling arms race, resulting in such lunacy being considered or proposed as arming up teachers and supplying armored backpacks to kindergartners. The very fact of school shooter drills alone should bring on a bout of stinging national shame.

 

[Nessie]

An early strong contender for a Darwin Award

https://news.sky.com/story/kansas-man-dies-after-being-shot-by-dog-in-truck-police-say-12794977

"A man has died after a dog stepped on a rifle and shot him from the rear of a truck in the US state of Kansas."

 

[jeremyp]

US society has quite deliberately designed for itself a self perpetuating system of gun proliferation. It only required a critical mass of killing tools to be introduced as the catalyst. With the 'criminal set' now having such easy access, the 'law abiding set' must have even more unfettered access as a counterweight. More guns to steal, more needed by the good guys. And so goes the spiraling arms race, resulting in such lunacy being considered or proposed as arming up teachers and supplying armored backpacks to kindergartners. The very fact of school shooter drills alone should bring on a bout of stinging national shame.

I don't agree that the criminals having guns implies that the law abiding citizens need guns too.

Firstly, the person most likely to be killed with your gun is you. Suicides outnumber all other gun deaths put together in the USA.

Secondly, law abiding citizens having lots of guns makes it a lot easier for criminals to obtain lots of guns.

Thirdly, if the criminal who wants your wallet pulls a gun, you'll probably get away with just losing your wallet if you are unarmed. If you are armed, somebody is probably going to die and it might be you. Furthermore, if the criminal has the expectation that you are going to pull a gun, he might just shoot you instead of demanding your wallet.

Finally, as you say there is this spiralling arms race and you are not going to end it by distributing more guns. We can see that in the USA: it isn't working. The only other thing to try is to limit the availability of guns. Those are your two options: more deaths or gun control. Unfortunately, American politicians are not brave enough to try the latter in any meaningful sense.

 

[Darat]

...snip...
Finally, as you say there is this spiralling arms race and you are not going to end it by distributing more guns. We can see that in the USA: it isn't working. The only other thing to try is to limit the availability of guns. Those are your two options: more deaths or gun control. Unfortunately, American politicians are not brave enough to try the latter in any meaningful sense.

And to do that successfully it has to acknowledged that this decades old problem is going to take decades to improve.

 

[mgidm86]

If guns were properly regulated, fewer of them would be stolen.

If by regulating you mean keeping them out of the hands of most people then yes, that would help a lot.

Other than that, I don't know what regulations would have kept these parents from leaving their gun laying around for their kid to find, other than forbidding them from owning one at all.

People ignore laws all the time. "Screw the law I need my gun ready at all times, I'm not locking it up! What good is a gun in a safe?"

I guess some countries do random checks on gun owners. At least that's something. That'd be a full time job for a whole lot of people here.

Registration, limiting the amount of bullets one can buy, classes, all are a joke. You need to get guns out of people's hands. We just had a barroom shootout with multiple shooters in this country somewhere. So much for a polite society. The 2A is a total failure.

I just read your last post above it seems we agree on that. It's simple to me - humans have proven beyond a doubt that we can't handle the responsibility.

 

[novaphile]

An early strong contender for a Darwin Award

https://news.sky.com/story/kansas-man-dies-after-being-shot-by-dog-in-truck-police-say-12794977

"A man has died after a dog stepped on a rifle and shot him from the rear of a truck in the US state of Kansas."

Not the first time.

I used to have a philosophy lecturer who would read out a column from the USA by an anti gun activist. (Sent over by a USA friend).

One reading was about a hunter playing 'tug-o-war' with his dog, using his loaded and cocked hunting rifle. The hunter was holding the rifle by the barrel and the dog was pulling on the trigger guard. The hunter died.

From memory, the title of that column was "Guns don't kill people, doggies kill people."

Sounds like this happens more often that we'd expect:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dog-shooting-accidents_b_4110822

 

[jeremyp]

If by regulating you mean keeping them out of the hands of most people then yes, that would help a lot.

Other than that, I don't know what regulations would have kept these parents from leaving their gun laying around for their kid to find, other than forbidding them from owning one at all.

People ignore laws all the time. "Screw the law I need my gun ready at all times, I'm not locking it up! What good is a gun in a safe?"

I guess some countries do random checks on gun owners. At least that's something. That'd be a full time job for a whole lot of people here.

Registration, limiting the amount of bullets one can buy, classes, all are a joke. You need to get guns out of people's hands. We just had a barroom shootout with multiple shooters in this country somewhere. So much for a polite society. The 2A is a total failure.

I just read your last post above it seems we agree on that. It's simple to me - humans have proven beyond a doubt that we can't handle the responsibility.

Registration is not a joke, it is necessary in order to make some of the other measures work. You can’t do safety checks on gun owners’ homes if you don’t know who the gun owners are.

Making people take classes is not a joke. It might not stop all gun owners from doing stupid things, but it will stop some.

Limiting the amount of bullets is a joke. If people must own firearms, they need to be proficient in their handling and use. That means getting lots of practice in at the range.