Today in Gaza...

[Mycroft]

It's time to stop blaming everyone else for the Palestinian paramilitary violence and demand the Palestinians finally, and once and for all, do something about it.

Bets this will be turned into another they can't end all violence strawman.

 

[geni]

Some people will make any excuse to deny the Palestinian ownership of Palestinian paramilitary violence. Often it is the "settlers" or the "checkpoints" or "Sharons visit to the temple mount" or "likud's policies" or "Israel's expasionism" to rationalize Palestinian paramilitary violence. Hell, Geni is trying to dissassociate the Palestinian Authority's ownership over it's own territory.

No I'm not.

It's time to stop blaming everyone else for the Palestinian paramilitary violence and demand the Palestinians finally, and once and for all, do something about it.

Like what? The civil war/ near civil war is part of the wider conflict in the arab world. We will be somewhat lucky if it can be contained.

They don't even keep the deals they make with their own people so how can anyone expect them to keep deals with Israel?

Since when did Hammas make deals with Israel?

Guns over food. Go figure.

Need to talk to egypt aboujt boarder controls.

 

[geni]

By the way, Z-N, if you want to see a really great excuse for continued violence (among themselves and against Israel, also...), then wait until next week, as the Hadarim Prisoner's Documents are brought to a referendum and 'ratified' and become official !!!
The media has bought the line that the document 'recognizes Israel' and that's the way it is being presented. What a farce.

It calls for a two state solution. In any case it is doing a lot of political damage to hamas.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I especially laughed at the news-reporter's eyewitness description of the 'repositioning' of the HAMAS gunmen:

A spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior ministry, Khaled Abu Hilal, claimed the force had been repositioned, but there was no change on the ground. Black-clad gunmen stood guard on street corners throughout the Gaza Strip, at times shifting positions but remaining in full public view.

Ya...I agree...what a load of bovine excrement....

Our HAMAS gunmen have been "repositioned" - hilarious euphemism of the month in my books.

By the way, Z-N, if you want to see a really great excuse for continued violence (among themselves and against Israel, also...), then wait until next week, as the Hadarim Prisoner's Documents are brought to a referendum and 'ratified' and become official !!! The media has bought the line that the document 'recognizes Israel' and that's the way it is being presented. What a farce.

I know...as if recognnition of a country which has exsisted since 1948 needs to be ratified as "exsisting". And if it is - which I highly doubt since it has been rejected by Hamas twice now - the media will cheer that as a historical Palestinian move towards Middle East peace.

Like what? The civil war/ near civil war is part of the wider conflict in the arab world. We will be somewhat lucky if it can be contained.

...and there you go again, you rationalize Palestinian political violence as the result of another outside cause... see: "part of the wider conflict in the arab world".

Since when did Hammas make deals with Israel?

Hamas can't even keep deals with Fatah, an indication of the reality on-the-ground.

Need to talk to egypt aboujt boarder controls.

No, they don't need to "talk to Egypt" Hamas needs to spend the money it spends on weapons for food and medicine for Palestinians.

 

[Mycroft]

....you can behave civily or you can discuss these issues for the rest of this thread with someone else.

Its spin web.....fearmongering. You must live in constant fear of being wiped out by a handfull of destitute Palestinians, otherwise you could not be convinced they deserve no rights.

I believe telling Web he believes Palestinians deserve no rights is far less civil than Web questioning your sanity for poo-pooing fear of terrorism.

 

[webfusion]

geni was fooled -- but we weren't

It (Hadarim Document) calls for a two state solution

It does not.

Here is what the National Conciliation Document of the Prisoners actually says;


1. The Palestinian people at home and in exile seek to liberate their land and realize their right of freedom, return and independence, and their right to self-determination, including their right to establish an independent state (with Jerusalem as its capital on all the land occupied in 1967), guaranteeing the right of return for the refugees, liberating all the prisoners and detainees, drawing upon our people's historic right in the land of our ancestors...


3. The Palestinian people's right to resistance and upholding the choice of resistance by all means...


10. Working to form a united resistance front called the "Palestinian resistance front" to lead and carry out the resistance against occupation and to unify and coordinate the resistance action and form a unified political reference for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501679.html


Nowhere does it indicate any acknowledgement of Israel as legitimate.
Not a word about a two-state solution.

The reference to "1967" only comes in regards to the requirement that (East ?) Jerusalem be the capital of the Palestinian State --- including, inter-alia, the Haram al_Sharif and AlAqsa, which is what the sentence in #1 refers to, specifically. At no point in this 18-paragraph do we read a word about a two-state solution. On the contrary, it seems to make it clear that TOTAL and COMPLETE liberation of all the lands of Palestine are what are sought ----

And I can assure everyone, without a doubt, that HAMAS representative Sheik Abdel Khaliq al-Natsche signed this paper, with the full realization that it means a Palestinian State will be formed, only as a base of operations for a unified and broad effort to liberate all of palestine and continue the jihad...

That's obvious, to me anyway.

Maybe someone else can point out any mention of a 'two-state' offer here?
Good luck.

 

[geni]

Maybe someone else can point out any mention of a 'two-state' offer here?
Good luck.

the U.N. charter, international law, 
and what international legitimacy guarantees.

That means israel has to exist.

They also calls for the implentation of Resolution 194 which inplicitly reconises israel (AKA the jewish state )(it references 186 which of course refences 181) but would result in a rather weird UN potectorate.

 

[webfusion]

continuation and consolidation of the "struggle"

Like I said, geni, good luck finding mention of the two-state solution.

Mentioning the UN Charter in the same breath as 18 other clauses saying they refuse to accept Israel is kinda stretching things, wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, this document is more designed to achieve some rapport among the Palestinain factions themselves, more than being a document laying out any specific deal or peaceful resolution with Israel.

And that, dear friends, is why HAMAS doesn't want to make this paper's recommendations an official part of the public record....
because it places the Fatah (PLO) in charge of the PA and pretty much overrides the results of the January elections.

Read the document. That's what it aims to do.
It's really not offering Israel recognition, and not providing a basis for a 'two-state' peaceful resolution.

Period.

 

[geni]

Like I said, geni, good luck finding mention of the two-state solution.

Mentioning the UN Charter in the same breath as 18 other clauses saying they refuse to accept Israel is kinda stretching things, wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, this document is more designed to achieve some rapport among the Palestinain factions themselves, more than being a document laying out any specific deal or peaceful resolution with Israel.

194 includes a theoretical peace deal with Israel. Not one that either side (or pretty much anyone else) would even consider accepting but it does exist.

And that, dear friends, is why HAMAS doesn't want to make this paper's recommendations an official part of the public record....
because it places the Fatah (PLO) in charge of the PA and pretty much overrides the results of the January elections.

Read the document. That's what it aims to do.

On blance I would rather deal with the PLO than Hammas. Hammas are a problem. The referendum weakens them. Throw in the issue that the EU has shown that it will cut off funding and it looks like tha palistians may hae started thinking about the wider consiquences of their actions.

 

[webfusion]

Not one that either side (or pretty much anyone else) would even consider accepting 194 but it does exist.

Israel is not going to set the clock back to 1949, at Rhodes.


Which leaves HAMAS and the other Palestinian irredentist factions to continue their jihad to reclaim all of Israel.

Would you say that's an accurate assessment?

 

[geni]

Israel is not going to set the clock back to 1949, at Rhodes.

Not just Israel. How many counties do you think want a UN potectorate to worry about?

Which leaves HAMAS and the other Palestinian irredentist factions to continue their jihad to reclaim all of Israel.

Would you say that's an accurate assessment?

No. Hammas are loseing support. Abbas may have found a way to out manover them. The PLO isn't gaining much support though which leaves a gap for other groups. Some of which are going to notice there is at least some support in palistine for a two state solution.

Palistine is now a democray of sorts. What the people think matters.

 

[webfusion]

geni proposes: Hamas are losing support.

geni, where do you come up with your facts? Do you just make them up and throw them onto this forum to see if they stick?

What evidence do you have in support of that claim?

 

[geni]

geni, where do you come up with your facts? Do you just make them up and throw them onto this forum to see if they stick?

What evidence do you have in support of that claim?

The poll showed that willingness to vote for Hamas declined from 50%, according to a poll that was conducted on April 5, to 37% now (13 points decline), while voting for Fateh remained stable at 37%.

poll conducted by Bir Zeit University

first hit on google news for this one:


http://www.amin.org/eng/uncat/2006/june/june6-0.html

Others reporting the same poll:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/08/opinion/eddromi.php

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=104940

I'm sure you can find more.

 

[a_unique_person]

Sounds to me like the Palestinian people want something better than Fatah and Hamas. I hope they get it. If the attempts to reform Fatah work, Fatah might do.

 

[webfusion]

Un

Not just Israel. How many countries do you think want a UN protectorate to worry about?

Well, Israel right now has several 'UN protectorates' in place at various locations around her borders ---- there's UNDOF at the Syrian border, and UNIFIL in Lebanon, MFO in Sinai (not officially a UN force, but this Multinational Force is composed of ten Participating States: Australia, Canada, Colombia, Fiji, France, Hungary, Italy, New Zealand, the United States and Uruguay. Also Norway contributes a few officers as well), a European contingent is stationed at RAFAH, and don't forget the TIPH.

 

[webfusion]

Bir Zeit? They didn't even poll the Hamas victory correctly.

Also, this poll is totally skewed with the mere fact of salaries not being paid influencing all respondents! You must realize that almost every family has one or more members who are on the government payroll, which right now, is not being met. That's a major reason to be pissed-off! I don't know whether the poll statistic reflects anything more than that.

What does 'willingness to vote for HAMAS' mean, anyway?

{{{{ General support for Hamas is, however, at 33%, while support for Fateh is at 36% }}}} What was it prior to this new poll? No information on that is given. That is a key statistic to "prove" any support decreasing, wouldn't you think?


------- eta ------

Here ya go, geni, I've done your homework for you:

[link] -- from Jaffe Center for Stragegic Studies: Surveys by the Nablus-based Center for Palestinian Research and Studies (CPRS) conducted in 1998 and the first half of 1999 indicate a decline in support for Hamas: The rate of support for Fatah (PLO) was 39 percent, compared to 12 percent for Hamas and 3 percent for the Popular Front (PFLP).[/link]

So, using this as a baseline, from 1999 to 2006 the support for Hamas has gone from 12% to 33%.
That's a net increase in support, right?

Not to mention they are now in control of the Legislature! And no new elections are planned.
So the poll question about "willingness to vote for HAMAS" is bogus.

 

[a_unique_person]

Bir Zeit? They didn't even poll the Hamas victory correctly.

Also, this poll is totally skewed with the mere fact of salaries not being paid influencing all respondents! You must realize that almost every family has one or more members who are on the government payroll, which right now, is not being met. That's a major reason to be pissed-off! I don't know whether the poll statistic reflects anything more than that.

That would be a good enough reason for people to be pissed off. Hamas has to wake up to reality sooner of later.

 

[webfusion]

What reality? Yours or theirs?

Theirs is quite clear:
By Reuters ===========
The ruling Palestinian faction Hamas on Thursday deplored the killing by U.S. warplanes of the al Qaeda leader in Iraq Abu Musab al-Zarqawi,


Meanwhile, the Israelis weren't sitting idly by and letting the USA grab all the headlines:

• Hamas government's security chief, Jamal Abu Samhadana was killed just hours ago in a precision-guided IAF missile strike.

A spokesman for the Popular Resistance Committees vowed revenge.
"The Zionists and Israelis have opened the gates of hell by assassinating Abu Samhadana," said PRC spokesman Abu Abir.

Yeah yeah, we've heard it all before...

Good riddance.

 

[geni]

Bir Zeit? They didn't even poll the Hamas victory correctly.

And the UK opinion polsters didn't even get the 1991 election right. Should we ignore them as well?

Also, this poll is totally skewed with the mere fact of salaries not being paid influencing all respondents! You must realize that almost every family has one or more members who are on the government payroll, which right now, is not being met. That's a major reason to be pissed-off! I don't know whether the poll statistic reflects anything more than that.

It means they are getting pissed of at Hammas. It means that at least some of them are going to work out that in future electing people the EU really doesn't like is a bad move.

However if it was mearly people getting pissed off at hammas then there would not be a reason for support for the referendum being so high.

What does 'willingness to vote for HAMAS' mean, anyway?

{{{{ General support for Hamas is, however, at 33%, while support for Fateh is at 36% }}}} What was it prior to this new poll? No information on that is given. That is a key statistic to "prove" any support decreasing, wouldn't you think?

Well if we take the israelnn.com article

"Hamas has dropped significantly, falling to 37 percent compared with 50 percent two months ago"

So it has fallen 13%

 

[geni]

Well, Israel right now has several 'UN protectorates' in place at various locations around her borders ---- there's UNDOF at the Syrian border, and UNIFIL in Lebanon, MFO in Sinai (not officially a UN force, but this Multinational Force is composed of ten Participating States: Australia, Canada, Colombia, Fiji, France, Hungary, Italy, New Zealand, the United States and Uruguay. Also Norway contributes a few officers as well), a European contingent is stationed at RAFAH, and don't forget the TIPH.

Yeah they exist but running Kosovo is enough trouble. Running Jerusalem would be a major headache.