Today in Gaza...

[a_unique_person]

What do you think, Israelis are stupid?

No more than that farmer.

 

[David Swidler]

Tolerate them? Of course not. However, you obviously tailor your response to the threat. So I spend a lot of time listening to people tell me how this rag tag band of busted arse insurgents is somehow going to "wipe out Israel" or "butcher the jews" or "drive Israelis into the sea".

You confuse their ability with the attitude, and what that attitude portends for a sovereign state at Israel's doorstep. Once that state controls its own borders and ports, there's nothing to stop them from gaining the ability. Given the PA's attempts under Arafat to do just that (see Karine A, for example) even without complete sovereignty, don't expect Israel to respond gently to violence, however "minor" it might seem to you.

Although I wasn't absolutely specific I was refering to concessions to palestinians and not Egyptians, Syrians or lebanese.

What's to concede? Israel didn't take any land from them, but from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. There was no sovereign "Palestine" from which to take land.

wants the land, doesn't want the unsuitable people is more how I would judge it. Israel will take as much land as it can that surrounds Jerusalem while ensuring the numbers of undesirable people does not exceed a nomonally acceptable level (the level above which keeping them powerless would be incompatable with the claim of democracy).

You missed the point. Go back and read your original quote, snip off the last clause and understand it as referring to the Palestinians.

But in any case, to put it gently, you have no idea what you're talking about. Arab residents of Jerusalem (there are about 200,000) are full citizens of Israel, with all that implies - plus an exemption from military service. The "undesireable" people to whom you refer make up a fifth of Israel's population, contributing productively and patriotically to a thriving democracy. Come visit Israel, TF, and cut throught the propaganda.

Until it is resolved? Until what is resolved? The violence?

The question of the Palestinians' ability and willingness, as a society, to abandon violence as a political tool.

Sorry David, I listen to all sorts of stories on this forum but the most common is that Israel does what it does because of arab violence...as if Israel would be sitting inside those silly original British partition lines with Jerusalem as an international city if some arabs had never got violent.

They weren't British, they were UN-proposed. Guess who accepted it and who rejected it? Guess how that rejection played out?

And I like the way you call seven invading armies - including officers trained by the Wehrmacht - plus irregulars and local guerillas, "some Arabs." Nice touch.

What has changed in Jerusalem since the Gaza pullout is the announcement that Israel is going to redraw its boundries and take whatever land arround it that it wishes....Can you imagine what would have been the reaction to this little announcement if it was not done during the current gaza show?

Except that it began long before the Gaza disengagement, so your analysis doesn't hold water. The wall started going up in 2003, if I recall correctly. Oh, sure, for the voters' sake there were public denials that it would constitute a political boundary, but the wall system included bona fide border crossing terminals (not yet active) long before the previous government even mentioned a withdrawal from Gaza.


But we're getting a bit far afield here. If you've anything substantive to say about the OP, be my guest.

 

[The Fool]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/723677.html
Yuval Diskin reveals that "World Jihad" is now establishing new, larger and more complex threats...

"The security forces have recently identified initial signs that World Jihad has begun building an ideological foothold in the West Bank, Shin Bet Director Yuval Diskin said on Tuesday."

what are these "initial signs"?
what is "world Jihad"?
what is an Ideological foothold?

Its spin web.....fearmongering. You must live in constant fear of being wiped out by a handfull of destitute Palestinians, otherwise you could not be convinced they deserve no rights.

 

[webfusion]

tailor, tinker, candlestick maker

However, you obviously tailor your response to the threat.

Obviously.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/723272.html
In another precision-guided strike, Israel Air Force craft fired two missiles at a car carrying the operatives, on Salah al-Din street in the north of Gaza City, close to the Jabalya refugee camp. The attack killed Majdi Hamed, 24, and Imad Asalaya.

• Hamed was a true piece of work:
  Hamed, who served in the Preventive Security Service of the Palestinian Authority (!!!), was involved in several terrorist attempts. He played a central role in two attempts to blow up the Karni crossing, last December and this past April. He also launched Qassem rockets into Israel, fired anti-tank missiles and made bombs.

I have just two words:
Good riddance.

also:
A 20-kilogram bomb was discovered along the Gaza Strip perimeter fence and was detonated in a controlled explosion.


also:
In arrest sweeps in the West Bank, 14 wanted men were detained, including three Islamic Jihad operatives in Jenin.


also:
Two Palestinians were wounded yesterday by Border Police gunfire near Dahariya, west of Hebron. According to the army, the two were in a car that burst through a checkpoint.

also:
More Qassam rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel.



Threat? What threat? Israel only faces a rag tag band of busted arse insurgents that cannot possibly really pursue their aims to "butcher the jews" ---
no worries, then...

 

[webfusion]

The Fool:
You must live in constant fear of being wiped out by a handfull of destitute Palestinians.

Oct 21, 2002 - 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera. The bus had pulled over at a bus stop when the suicide bomber, from Jenin, driving a jeep, approached from behind and exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims: Osnat Abramov, 16, of Holon; Indelou Ashati, 54, of Hadera; St.-Sgt. Liat Ben-Ami, 20, of Haifa; Ofra Burger, 56, of Hod Hasharon; Cpl. Ilona Hanukayev, 20, of Hadera; Suad Jaber, 23, of Taibe; Iris Lavi, 68, of Netanya; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Eliezer Moskovitch, 40, of Petah Tikva; St.-Sgt. Nir Nahum, 20, of Carmiel; Sgt. Esther Pesachov, 19, of Givat Olga; St.-Sgt. Aiman Sharuf, 20, of Ussfiyeh; Sergei Shavchuk, 35, of Afula; Anat Shimshon, 33, of Ra'anana; Cpl. Sharon Tubol, 19, of Arad.

Oct 10, 2002 - Sa'ada Aharon, 71, of Ramat Gan was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board Dan bus No. 87 across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway (Route 4). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 23, 2002 - Shlomo Yitzhak Shapira, 48, of Jerusalem was killed and three of his children wounded, one seriously, in a shooting attack Monday evening near the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron. The family, from Jerusalem, had come to Hebron to celebrate the Sukkot festival.

Sept 18, 2002 - The charred body of David Buhbut, 67, of Ma'ale Adumim, shot in the head, was found near el-Azzariya, a Palestinian village near Ma'ale Adumim, east of Jerusalem, the victim of a terrorist killing.

June 6, 2002 - Erez Rund, 18, of Ofra died of gunshot wounds to the chest sustained in a shooting attack near Ofra, north of Ramallah, when Palestinian terrorists opened fire from an ambush.


I could go on... and on ... and on....


Here's my only question at this point ----
Are you insane, The Fool?

 

[webfusion]

otherwise you could not be convinced they deserve no rights.

straw.

 

[The Fool]

Are you insane, The Fool?

....you can behave civily or you can discuss these issues for the rest of this thread with someone else.

 

[webfusion]

I'm quite through discussing this with you, TF.

 

[geni]

So lemme see if I have this straight. 11 deaths in Gaza due to intercene warfare between Palestinian factions is "pretty minor". That is a strange rationalization considering the dead Palestinians were gunned down in the street by Palestinian militants.

Have any been arrested? Not on your life. If paramilitary groups were running around Britain executing folks I'm sure the British government wouldn't stand for it for one second.

Funny you should say that. In fact there is evidence that British intelligance agencies helped at least some of the groups doing that in at least a few cases.

The PA under Fatah didn't stop it, the PA under Hamas surely refuses to stop it, so the murders continue - that is between the Palestinian rockets and the Palestinian suicide bombers which are endlessly sent into Israel. Welcome to the wonderful world of the Palestinian Authority.

Palistine appears to be the new frount line in the fight between the old style secular near communist leaderships and the new style islamic radicals. See algerian civil war.

Significant? That will make the second time Abbas has "extended" the plan for statehood that implicitly recognises Israel. Hamas rejected it on May 28th, Hamas rejected it on June 5th and you can bet you life Hamas will reject at the end of this week. How many times does Hamas have to reject a plan that recognizes Israel before Europeans accept that Hamas rejects Israel entirely?

What has europe got to do with this. A referendum puts hammas in a very difficult position if they lose it will highlight the break between them and thier support base. First step toward weakening hammas. You may not like Abbas but right now he is about the only person who might be able to challange hammas where it counts.

Which brings us back to the OP. The Palestinians own their fate, they own their past, they own their present and they own their future.

Amuseing. No country on the planet can claim that.

It's time to stop rationalizing Palestinian paramilitary violence as the logical result of some outside force - usually Israel/jews/Sharon/settlers/zionism/european colonialists/take your pick.

The internal stuff at the moment is due to clash of idiologies that goes well beyond palistine.

Again the algerian civil war. What we are seeing in somalia. Keep an eye on egypt when Mubarak dies.

For there is no outside force in Gaza today that one can use to rationalize Palestinian paramilitary violence anymore.

Israel is still throwing stuff at them from helecopters.

 

[webfusion]

death from above

geni proclaims:

Israel is still throwing stuff at them from helicopters.

Not at "them" --- the IAF is focusing their accurate air-to-ground fire from Apaches and Cobras at specific maniacs who are directly responsible for acts of wanton uncivilized terrorism.
Good riddance, is how I look at it.
And you look at it how, exactly, geni?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/724151.html
Israel offers to fund all medical treatements for Mariya Aman.

 

[geni]

geni proclaims:


Not at "them" --- the IAF is focusing their accurate air-to-ground fire from Apaches and Cobras at specific maniacs who are directly responsible for acts of wanton uncivilized terrorism.
Good riddance, is how I look at it.
And you look at it how, exactly, geni?

Outside interference in palistine. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But don't pretend it doesn't exist.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/724151.html
Israel offers to fund all medical treatements for Mariya Aman.

Standard attempt at damage limitation.

 

[webfusion]

no such entity as "palistine"

Standard attempt at damage limitation.

No. Absolutely not. It is unprecedented.
This matter is being handled by the Defense Minister himself, and there has never been an instance (AFAIK) of such an offer.

If you have evidence of your claim "standard attempt", please provide it, geni.

Outside interference in palistine.

The terrorists, who are targeted by Israeli Defense Forces, have perpetrated henious crimes and the Israeli system allows for these extrajudicial operations, under the existing Emergency Regulations.

"Palestine" as you keep referring to it (spelling corrected), does not exist.

 

[geni]

No. Absolutely not. It is unprecedented.
This matter is being handled by the Defense Minister himself, and there has never been an instance (AFAIK) of such an offer.

If you have evidence of your claim "standard attempt", please provide it, geni.

Ok so israel is even worse at the hearts and minds stuff than I thought.

The terrorists, who are targeted by Israeli Defense Forces, have perpetrated henious crimes and the Israeli system allows for these extrajudicial operations, under the existing Emergency Regulations.

"Palestine" as you keep referring to it (spelling corrected), does not exist.

Neither does western sahara. What of it?

 

[webfusion]

"Palestine" as you keep referring to it (spelling corrected), does not exist.

Neither does western sahara. What of it?

My point, geni, was that the Israeli Army is engaged in stopping and eliminating specific people who they know are engaged in terror acts being perpetrated against Israelis, so it is not "outside interference" ---- the Israelis have defined targets who are legitimately wanted for their involvement of murder and attempted murder against Israeli citizens.

That they happen to be in Gaza or the West Bank is irrelevant. Those areas are not "safe havens" for terrorists, AFAIK.
And those areas will never be safe havens for terrorists, even after the Palestinians form their own State of Palestine.

Get it?

 

[geni]

My point, geni, was that the Israeli Army is engaged in stopping and eliminating specific people who they know are engaged in terror acts being perpetrated against Israelis, so it is not "outside interference" ---- the Israelis have defined targets who are legitimately wanted for their involvement of murder and attempted murder against Israeli citizens.

That they happen to be in Gaza or the West Bank is irrelevant. Those areas are not "safe havens" for terrorists, AFAIK.
And those areas will never be safe havens for terrorists, even after the Palestinians form their own State of Palestine.

Get it?

Since none of the things you list are capital crimes in Israel. Israel is treating Palistine as a de-faco independant area.

 

[webfusion]

at War

Israel's legal situation is complex and I don't pretend to know too much about it, but the Emergency Regulations provide wide latitude in dealing with enemies who are at war. The actions of the IDF in disputed territories do not fall directly under the criminal laws of Israeli jurisprudence.

Israel is not treating the Palestinian Authority as a de-facto independent area.
Where did you come up with that idea?

 

[geni]

Israel's legal situation is complex and I don't pretend to know too much about it, but the Emergency Regulations provide wide latitude in dealing with enemies who are at war.

War again requires countries.

The actions of the IDF in disputed territories do not fall directly under the criminal laws of Israeli jurisprudence.

Israel is not treating the Palestinian Authority as a de-facto independent area.
Where did you come up with that idea?

Generaly it is not considered logical to blow up parts of your own country.

Isreal is not trying to fuction in the form of a state within those areas. They do not recognise any other goverment as haveing control over that area. Thus the area is de-facto independant. A bit like Transnistria but without the soviet army.

 

[webfusion]

war does not require countries...

They(Israelis) do not recognise any other government as having control over that area.

Sure they do, indeed. The Palestinian Authority is the legal and recognized government, of those autonomous areas. They just don't have sovereignty.

(see: Oslo Accords )

 

[zenith-nadir]

Sure they do, indeed. The Palestinian Authority is the legal and recognized government, of those autonomous areas. They just don't have sovereignty.

Some people will make any excuse to deny the Palestinian ownership of Palestinian paramilitary violence. Often it is the "settlers" or the "checkpoints" or "Sharons visit to the temple mount" or "likud's policies" or "Israel's expasionism" to rationalize Palestinian paramilitary violence. Hell, Geni is trying to dissassociate the Palestinian Authority's ownership over it's own territory.

It's time to stop blaming everyone else for the Palestinian paramilitary violence and demand the Palestinians finally, and once and for all, do something about it.

Today in Gaza:

6/8/2006

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip Jun 8, 2006 (AP)— The Hamas-led government's 3,000-member private militia showed no signs of withdrawing from Gaza's streets Thursday despite a deal with the rival Fatah movement to remove it from public areas.

The government agreed to pull back its militia in the Egyptian-mediated agreement Wednesday aimed at halting weeks of bloody infighting.

(emphasis mine)

They don't even keep the deals they make with their own people so how can anyone expect them to keep deals with Israel?

6/8/2006

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's forces and Hamas rivals are expanding their arsenals as a power struggle intensifies, increasing the risk that a showdown could turn bloody, security sources and diplomats said.

New weapons and equipment can be seen on the streets of Gaza and the
West Bank, while prices for black market guns and ammunition have soared in a growing arms race despite pledges by both sides to prevent civil war.

In the West Bank, Hamas has been buying M-16 rifles. Dealers said heavy demand and a lack of supply have sent prices soaring to as much as $13,000 each, up from $5,400 a year ago.

Guns over food. Go figure.

 

[webfusion]

I especially laughed at the news-reporter's eyewitness description of the 'repositioning' of the HAMAS gunmen:

A spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior ministry, Khaled Abu Hilal, claimed the force had been repositioned, but there was no change on the ground. Black-clad gunmen stood guard on street corners throughout the Gaza Strip, at times shifting positions but remaining in full public view.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By the way, Z-N, if you want to see a really great excuse for continued violence (among themselves and against Israel, also...), then wait until next week, as the Hadarim Prisoner's Documents are brought to a referendum and 'ratified' and become official !!!
The media has bought the line that the document 'recognizes Israel' and that's the way it is being presented. What a farce.