Today in Gaza...

I have read about numerous peaceful protests by Palestinians, they just don't make it on the front page.
But you cannot name a single Palestinian non-violent resistance group. Can you? You can name Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLO....but you cannot name a single Palestinian non-violent resistance group. That should be your wakeup call.

I think you read me wrong, I am not anti-Palestinian, I am anti-violence, anti-jihad, anti-Islamic fundamentalist, anti-Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Like most people who's lives are actually touched by the goings on in Israel - and not some armchair critic thousands of miles away - I wish the Palestinians all the best, I desire a peaceful future for both Israelis and Palestinians. But we sure as hell ain't gonna get there if useful idiots and liberals keep rationalizing Palestinian violence as "the result of something else".

If you really wanna help the Palestinians stop running interference for them and make them responsible for their own paramilitary violence. They own their violence - Arafat's legacy - and they are the ones responsible to fix it.
 
Today in Gaza...

  • A large explosion ripped through a house in a northern Gaza town on Monday, killing one man and wounding two other people, hospital officials said. There were no details on the cause of the blast in Jebaliya. But relatives said the dead man was a member of Hamas.
  • Violence between warring Palestinian factions claimed the lives of one gunmen and four bystanders late Sunday...
  • In the southern Gaza city of Khan Younis forces loyal to Fatah fought the new Hamas militia, security officials said. A 20-year-old woman, eight months pregnant, was killed when masked gunmen opened fire on a car carrying her and two Hamas operatives, who were wounded. One later died.
  • Gunmen from the two rival Palestinian factions battled in Gaza City, security officials said, and three bystanders were killed. Relatives of the dead gathered at the hospital where the bodies were taken and shouted anti-Hamas slogans.
  • Two Arab Bank branches in Gaza City closed after coming under siege from angry Palestinian civil servants...
( source 1, source 2)

11 deaths. Pretty minor considering.

In any case this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5049346.stm

is far more significant in the long run.
 
A military occupation is an act of war. That is, it is inherently violent and an act of agression.
Seems you're having some difficulty with your definitions today. First you refuse to explain what you mean by "Zionism." Now this.

After Germany surrendered to the Allied powers in May, 1945, was it still at war with its military occupiers?

Japan surrendered to the U.S. in August, 1945. The U.S. militarily occupied Japan until (I believe) 1952. Was that an act of war?
 
timeline

Let's talk about Acts of War --

#1.
The residents of ALL Ottoman-occupied Palestine in 1890 are the native Palestinians. That group of natives included Moslems, Christians, Jews, Ba'hai, Copts, Circassians, Samaritans, Armenians, you-name-it. At the time, the definition of "Palestine" was all-encompassing, and only in the 1920's did the San Remo Conference establish boundries (using the Sykes-Picot lines).
Of course, as history indicates, fully 75% of the San Remo "Palestine lands" were lopped-off and given to a Bedouin clan of Hashemites, while the jews made do with a few enclaves on the coastal plain, as the British enforced jewish immigration quotas (yet countless hundreds of thousands of arabs from surrounding areas poured into the land, and became 'instant palestinian natives').

So, in context, we must recall that Hashemites 'occupied' Palestine. They still do. The Kingdom exists on lands that until 1922 were considered an integral part of the Jewish Homeland (as envisioned in the Balfour Declaration, which formed the basis for the Mandate).


#2.
The idea of escaping a coming anti-semetic wave of destruction in Europe was a prime motivation for Herzl. He saw the anti-jewish reactions of Europeans in the streets of Paris while covering the Dreyfuss Trial, and realized what the Europeans were capable of. As things turned out, he was 100% correct.
Zionism was/is not evil. The movement of modern Zionism was founded on principles of peaceful cooperation and economic development in a land largely neglected.

Did Zionism envision that the 'natives' would suffer? What evidence is there that in the period of the half-century 1890 - 1940 the presence of jews caused any native suffering or displaced them? I can show evidence that the opposite is true... certainly we acknowledge that bedouin / fedayyin marauding and anti-jewish brutality was rampant. And we know that the arab land-owners welcomed the jews, and these land-owners took the opportunity to dispose of their desolate scrub parcels, gladly, at inflated prices. By 1944, jews were paying arab sellers over $1000 an acre for arid or semi-arid land that had lain fallow for centuries. At this same time, lands of real value with rich black soil in the State of Iowa (USA) were selling for 1/10th of that price.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a "Return to Zion" of the Jewish people, who, for thousands of years and yes, until this day, consider the land our homeland. Is it justifiably our homeland? Or is the arab claim to palestine so much stronger that it trumps us?

HAMAS says that the muslim claim is rightful, while the jewish claim is bogus.
That is the islamic logic that leads me to believe that this is not about land, and not about 'occupied land' -- it is about religious fervor and religious power, and that jihad is the ongoing war, not specifically with Israel as a land, but with ALL infidels.


#3.
So, here we are, after TWO world wars, in which the inhabitants of the entire globe have been subjected to vast upheaveals and countless millions died, and a few hundred thousand arabs have to shift around several miles, as a result of yet another war being waged in their names to eradicate the jews. Exactly at this same time, a few hundred thousand jews also shift out of their homes across the mideast, and are accepted by Israel. They neither know the language, the food, the dress, nor the jobs of the modern State of Israel. Yet, until today, they have managed in their own fashion to adapt. (see: Iraqi jewish community, Iranian jewish community, Moroccan jews, Egyptian jews, Syrian jews, Lebanese jews, Tunisian jews, Yeminite jews and even now, the Falasha jews of Ethiopia)

Israelis left gaza and are preparing to leave most of the west bank.
However, that will not satisfy the jihadists.

You want to know why?
Because Israel isn't going to return 100% back to the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines, and by that standard, is still an occupier! And as such, attacks will continue!

Watch and see...
The game is on.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/723677.html
 
11 deaths. Pretty minor considering.
So lemme see if I have this straight. 11 deaths in Gaza due to intercene warfare between Palestinian factions is "pretty minor". That is a strange rationalization considering the dead Palestinians were gunned down in the street by Palestinian militants.

Have any been arrested? Not on your life. If paramilitary groups were running around Britain executing folks I'm sure the British government wouldn't stand for it for one second. The PA under Fatah didn't stop it, the PA under Hamas surely refuses to stop it, so the murders continue - that is between the Palestinian rockets and the Palestinian suicide bombers which are endlessly sent into Israel. Welcome to the wonderful world of the Palestinian Authority.

In any case this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5049346.stm

is far more significant in the long run.
Significant? That will make the second time Abbas has "extended" the plan for statehood that implicitly recognises Israel. Hamas rejected it on May 28th, Hamas rejected it on June 5th and you can bet you life Hamas will reject at the end of this week. How many times does Hamas have to reject a plan that recognizes Israel before Europeans accept that Hamas rejects Israel entirely?

Significant is an adjective I would use to describe the lightbulb finally going off in the useful idiots and liberals heads that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are not some "freedom fighters" defending Palestine from "colonialists".

Which brings us back to the OP. The Palestinians own their fate, they own their past, they own their present and they own their future. It's time to stop rationalizing Palestinian paramilitary violence as the logical result of some outside force - usually Israel/jews/Sharon/settlers/zionism/european colonialists/take your pick.

For there is no outside force in Gaza today that one can use to rationalize Palestinian paramilitary violence anymore. The emperor has no clothes.
 
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recognition

After the 18th time, someone in the HAMAS marketing communications office will release a statement:

"According to our Charter -- in the preamble and Article #28 --- we already 'recognize Israel', and there is no need to hold a referendum about it."

==================================

The reason the factions and gangs and militias are going nuts against each other is simple:

There is a secular, technocratic and practical leadership among the Palestinians, and they have an interest in trying to bring about the realization of a New Palestine that co-exists and operates with Israel.

There is a religious-fundamentalist leadership that refuses to accept anything less than an Islamic WAQF Sharia-law Palestine, which does not include Israel.

All talk of 'recognition' and 'two-states' is bluff and only is an attempt to place the onus on Israel for crossing the 1949 Cease-Fires Lines.

They were not international borders, they were artiificial map-lines anyway.
David Swidler, bless his heart, accurately and succinctly makes the following comment (at the end of his excellent post #28) --- which has remained unanswered by The Fool ----
"And that's where the OP comes in: geography is one thing; a polity capable of, and willing to, forgo political violence as a way of life, one capable of peaceful coexistence with a neighbor that will not simply withdraw into the Mediterranean Sea, is what the OP calls into question. Until it is resolved, any thought of getting Israel to give up strategic assets is pie-in-the-sky."
 
"And that's where the OP comes in: geography is one thing; a polity capable of, and willing to, forgo political violence as a way of life, one capable of peaceful coexistence with a neighbor that will not simply withdraw into the Mediterranean Sea, is what the OP calls into question. Until it is resolved, any thought of getting Israel to give up strategic assets is pie-in-the-sky."

It's a 'deadly embrace', more like it. "Strategic assets" are peoples lives in the palm of your hand.
 
Israelis living in the west bank are not committed to killing their neighbors; they have no militias out seeking to ambush drivers, fire rockets a few kilometers into arab villages, or walk into the arab town centers with bomb vests strapped on.

In 1949, the Israel negotiating team went to the island of Rhodes and said:
"OK, you want a cease fire in-place. Fine, let's see how it goes."

It went like ◊◊◊◊, and within less than two decades, the Israelis had more than enough of the cease fire in-place along those artificial lines. In June 1967, these ridiculous Rhodes Armistice Agreements collapsed totally, for pretty damn good reasons: The Israelis wanted a better strategic position to defend themselves from fedayyin attacks that were quite annoying and deadly, and to stop an organized pan-arab military assault that was about to happen.

So, here we are in 2006, and the most notorious palestinian convicted terrorists are trying to bring forward a document that demands Israel return to those wonderful days of 1949.

Screw that.

What do you think, Israelis are stupid?
 
The whole idea of the Palestinian Referendum sounds to me exactly like:

"Drunk man loses money at casino. Sues to get it back."
 
It's a 'deadly embrace', more like it. "Strategic assets" are peoples lives in the palm of your hand.


That sounds nice and poetic and all, but what does it mean? You don't refute anything said by Webfusion, and you don't make any cogent argument of your own.

Rather, you seem to be laying the blame for the whole conflict on Israel without acknowledging any responsibility at all for the Palestinians.
 
Seems you're having some difficulty with your definitions today. First you refuse to explain what you mean by "Zionism." Now this.
you can obviously spell it....maybe you don't have a dictionary?
 
you can obviously spell it....maybe you don't have a dictionary?

Zionism: A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

http://www.answers.com/zionism&r=67

And yet, it's used as a dirty word. How come?


Edited to add:

your new "modern" definition of a Zionist is anyone who supports the continued existence of Israel? Well, I support the continued existence of Israel so I'm a Zionist....and I never realised! The Fool, April 25th, 2004
 
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Z-N asks:

You cannot name a single Palestinian non-violent resistance group. Can you?

The FOol is lost in this thread ---- totally lost. Someone should hand him a roadmap.


The Fool indicates: "Despite some gratuitous talking up of the capabilities of Palestinians I don't think they have the capacity to injure Israel in any way except random killings."

That's the opposite estimation from what the head of the Israeli Shin_Bet offered, but then again, he's not The Fool.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/723677.html
Yuval Diskin reveals that "World Jihad" is now establishing new, larger and more complex threats...

whats next?

It does seem that HAMAS members are about to find themselves with targets on their backs and that the 'lull' (tadiyeh) is likely to be evaporated in puffs of incoming missiles against HAMAS limousines.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/724055.html

We can only hope...
 
And you somehow think Israel should tolerate these killings? They are an act of war; the question of capability is a distinction without a difference.
Tolerate them? Of course not. However, you obviously tailor your response to the threat. So I spend a lot of time listening to people tell me how this rag tag band of busted arse insurgents is somehow going to "wipe out Israel" or "butcher the jews" or "drive Israelis into the sea".

Are you thinking of the UN-endorsed withdrawal from Lebanon? The UN-endorsed arrangement in the Sinai? The UN-endorsed and -patrolled cease-fire lines with Syria? Resolution 242, which explicitly calls for secure borders, and NOT the 1949 armistice lines?
See Phalcon reference, above. And Jonathan Pollard, an issue so sensitive that successive Israeli governments don't dare mention the possibility of clemency to sitting US Presidents.
I certainly concede that concessions have been made in negotiations with various nations. I doubt if Israel wanted much in exchange for getting out of lebanon and I'm rerely ever impressed with concessions that are giving people bits of thier own nation back...Although I wasn't absolutely specific I was refering to concessions to palestinians and not Egyptians, Syrians or lebanese.

ignores the fact that Israel "wants" all the land, but is willing to reconsider the implications of retaining every last dunam of it (that's part of the rationale for the wall under construction, and Kadima's "Convergence" plan)
wants the land, doesn't want the unsuitable people is more how I would judge it. Israel will take as much land as it can that surrounds Jerusalem while ensuring the numbers of undesirable people does not exceed a nomonally acceptable level (the level above which keeping them powerless would be incompatable with the claim of democracy).



.I have no idea what you mean by this. What has changed in Jerusalem since the Gaza withdrawal?It might. And that's where the OP comes in: geography is one thing; a polity capable of, and willing to, forgo political violence as a way of life, one capable of peaceful coexistence with a neighbor that will not simply withdraw into the Mediterranean Sea, is what the OP calls into question. Until it is resolved, any thought of getting Israel to give up strategic assets is pie-in-the-sky.

Until it is resolved? Until what is resolved? The violence? Sorry David, I listen to all sorts of stories on this forum but the most common is that Israel does what it does because of arab violence...as if Israel would be sitting inside those silly original British partition lines with Jerusalem as an international city if some arabs had never got violent.

What has changed in Jerusalem since the Gaza pullout is the announcement that Israel is going to redraw its boundries and take whatever land arround it that it wishes....Can you imagine what would have been the reaction to this little announcement if it was not done during the current gaza show?
 
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… So I spend a lot of time listening to people tell me how this rag tag band of busted arse insurgents is somehow going to "wipe out Israel" or "butcher the jews" or "drive Israelis into the sea".

Can you site any references to people claiming the Palestinians are going to “wipe out Israel” (as opposed to simply saying it’s their goal) or is this another one of those less-than-truthful claims of yours?

Although I wasn't absolutely specific I was refering to concessions to palestinians and not Egyptians, Syrians or lebanese.

Are you claiming Israel has never made concessions to Palestinians?

Is that denial or revisionism? Both?

...as if Israel would be sitting inside those silly original British partition lines with Jerusalem as an international city if some arabs had never got violent.

Amazing. You manage to smear Israel for starting a war it didn’t start simply by implying they would have had no choice but to start it if history had been different.

Tell me, do you have any evidence to support this supposition?

What has changed in Jerusalem since the Gaza pullout is the announcement that Israel is going to redraw its boundries and take whatever land arround it that it wishes....Can you imagine what would have been the reaction to this little announcement if it was not done during the current gaza show?

Which announcement are you referring to? Can you provide a link?
 

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