Today in Gaza...

It's dangerous - and ultimately irresponsible - to attribute political violence as a way of life to occupation or colonialism, no matter how recent. It allows one to absolve the perpetrators of that violence, placing the blame on the one who established the "legacy."

At some point - the sooner, the better - you must insist that the "natives" take responsibility. They can ask for all the help they want, and the more provided, the better. But ultimately it's their game to lose.
 
David Swidler said:
It's dangerous - and ultimately irresponsible - to attribute political violence as a way of life to occupation or colonialism, no matter how recent. It allows one to absolve the perpetrators of that violence, placing the blame on the one who established the "legacy."

At some point - the sooner, the better - you must insist that the "natives" take responsibility. They can ask for all the help they want, and the more provided, the better. But ultimately it's their game to lose.
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Ok lets give ZN his wish...halelujia, fire off the fireworks, it is officially proclaimed that everything always has been always is and always will be the fault of the Palestinians....whats next?
 
The Fool said:
Ok lets give ZN his wish...halelujia, fire off the fireworks, it is officially proclaimed that everything always has been always is and always will be the fault of the Palestinians....whats next?
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Oh, I doubt that's ZN's goal (you might ask him outright, you know; it's a much more reliable way to find out what his goal is). More likely, he bristles at the suggestion that Israel should be pushed to make concessions to an entity who constituents seem to resort a bit too easily to intramural paramilitary violence as a political tool, and whose ability to adhere to agreements is therefore limited at best.

But then, I'm not ZN. I invite him to correct any errors in my assessment.
 
David Swidler said:
Oh, I doubt that's ZN's goal (you might ask him outright, you know; it's a much more reliable way to find out what his goal is). More likely, he bristles at the suggestion that Israel should be pushed to make concessions to an entity who constituents seem to resort a bit too easily to intramural paramilitary violence as a political tool, and whose ability to adhere to agreements is therefore limited at best.

But then, I'm not ZN. I invite him to correct any errors in my assessment.
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David, there are a couple of things that I find confusing about your post...who can push Israel to make concessions? Can you think of an example of Israel being pushed and making a concession? It is my observation that Israel overwhelmingly does not give a rats arse what anyone thinks of what it does...I'm sure there must be examples of Israeli concessions under pressure but I honestly cannot think of any.

Despite some gratuitous talking up of the capabilities of Palestinians I don't think they have the capacity to injure Israel in any way except random killings. Israel simply ignores the United nations as a matter of routine and if Israel also completely ignores what the US wants it to do it runs the grave risk of having its actions described as "unfortunate" by the US. Maybe even as far as "counter productive" I'm sure that is devastating to the Israeli government.

My opinion on Gaza is that it...and its population...are pawns in a big game of checkers whose goal is Jerusalem and whatever land around Jerusalem Israel wants....As nobody is even slightly interested in anything other than allowing Israel to do what they like around Jerusalem while Gaza is the show of choice... lets get it over and done with and see what is left of the original mandate that israel does not want. It may yet be fashionable into some form of viable Nation to address the legitimate nationalistic goals of the palestinian people.
 
David Swidler said:
Oh, I doubt that's ZN's goal (you might ask him outright, you know; it's a much more reliable way to find out what his goal is). More likely, he bristles at the suggestion that Israel should be pushed to make concessions to an entity who constituents seem to resort a bit too easily to intramural paramilitary violence as a political tool, and whose ability to adhere to agreements is therefore limited at best.

But then, I'm not ZN. I invite him to correct any errors in my assessment.
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He has made it pretty clear, Israel and Zionism is to blame for nothing, the Palestinians for everything.
 
David Swidler said:
It's dangerous - and ultimately irresponsible - to attribute political violence as a way of life to occupation or colonialism, no matter how recent. It allows one to absolve the perpetrators of that violence, placing the blame on the one who established the "legacy."

At some point - the sooner, the better - you must insist that the "natives" take responsibility. They can ask for all the help they want, and the more provided, the better. But ultimately it's their game to lose.
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It's impossible to know, where does the responsibility for each one start and end. ZN appears to be claiming Israel has no responsibility. I think it is safe to say that that is false.
 
The Fool said:
David, there are a couple of things that I find confusing about your post...who can push Israel to make concessions?
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I apologize for the confusion.

There's economic pressure (embargos), academic-political pressure (academic embargos), and plain old political pressure (ranging from obsessive UN attention to the annual ritual in the US Congress of "reconsidering" the military and economic aid Israel receives, among others.
Can you think of an example of Israel being pushed and making a concession? It is my observation that Israel overwhelmingly does not give a rats arse what anyone thinks of what it does...I'm sure there must be examples of Israeli concessions under pressure but I honestly cannot think of any.
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The Phalcon fiasco comes to mind; the quick end to the 1956 Sinai campaign; the US withholding loan gurantees absent Israeli assurances that the money would not be spent on settlements; presidential refusal to move the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem despite a Congressional law requiring the move; et al. There's plenty more, but of course the ones that stick in my mind are obviously the successful ones. Just because the pressure doesn't always work doesn't mean it's not effective.

Despite some gratuitous talking up of the capabilities of Palestinians I don't think they have the capacity to injure Israel in any way except random killings.
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And you somehow think Israel should tolerate these killings? They are an act of war; the question of capability is a distinction without a difference.

Israel simply ignores the United nations as a matter of routine
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Evidence?

Are you thinking of the UN-endorsed withdrawal from Lebanon? The UN-endorsed arrangement in the Sinai? The UN-endorsed and -patrolled cease-fire lines with Syria? Resolution 242, which explicitly calls for secure borders, and NOT the 1949 armistice lines?
and if Israel also completely ignores what the US wants it to do it runs the grave risk of having its actions described as "unfortunate" by the US. Maybe even as far as "counter productive" I'm sure that is devastating to the Israeli government.
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See Phalcon reference, above. And Jonathan Pollard, an issue so sensitive that successive Israeli governments don't dare mention the possibility of clemency to sitting US Presidents.

My opinion on Gaza is that it...and its population...are pawns in a big game of checkers whose goal is Jerusalem
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You should have stopped the quote right here, because
and whatever land around Jerusalem Israel wants....
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ignores the fact that Israel "wants" all the land, but is willing to reconsider the implications of retaining every last dunam of it (that's part of the rationale for the wall under construction, and Kadima's "Convergence" plan).
As nobody is even slightly interested in anything other than allowing Israel to do what they like around Jerusalem while Gaza is the show of choice...
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I have no idea what you mean by this. What has changed in Jerusalem since the Gaza withdrawal?
lets get it over and done with and see what is left of the original mandate that israel does not want. It may yet be fashionable into some form of viable Nation to address the legitimate nationalistic goals of the palestinian people.
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It might. And that's where the OP comes in: geography is one thing; a polity capable of, and willing to, forgo political violence as a way of life, one capable of peaceful coexistence with a neighbor that will not simply withdraw into the Mediterranean Sea, is what the OP calls into question. Until it is resolved, any thought of getting Israel to give up strategic assets is pie-in-the-sky.
 
a_unique_person said:
It's impossible to know, where does the responsibility for each one start and end. ZN appears to be claiming Israel has no responsibility. I think it is safe to say that that is false.
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He appears to be saying it in the OP? The OP doesn't mention Israel at all, and the only refernce to Jews is in saying that there are none living in the Gaza Strip anymore.

I think your reading of the OP - and the intent behind it, but again, that's ZN's job to clear up, should he deign to do so - is a distortion. There's no blame or fault assigned here, just a, "How do you expect Israel to negotiate in good faith with such people?"
 
The Fool said:
and also notice that I didn't say you did.....
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Let's revisit what you now claim you didn't say.

The Fool said:
What concerns me the most is that the logical progression of ZNs theory that this violence is inherent in palestinians is that the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area.
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Boy...I sure am glad you didn't say that.

The Fool said:
I'm sure its just a case that you have little or no understanding of the consequences of your position.
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So my "position" - your huge monstorous strawman - that the logical progression of "my" theory is to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of all Palestinians is now something "I" have no understanding of.

The Fool said:
but anyway...troll on ZN. I'm not interested.
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Eventhough you built a strawman the size of California...attributed it to me...deny doing it...then tell me I have no understanding of the "logical progression of my theory" you still take the time to drop in a troll reference. A good days work in fool-land to say the least!

:dl:

a_unique_person said:
Are you saying that the occupation has so corrupted their society, it is now totally dysfunctional?
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So the Palestinians are not actually responsible for their actions. "The occupation" is responsible for why Palestinians are shooting it out with other Palestinians on the streets of Gaza, why Palestinians are attacking Palestinian banks in Gaza, why Palestinians are shooting up Palestine TV broadcast facilities in the southern Gaza Strip. But wait a sec, isn't Gaza unoccupied?

a_unique_person said:
ZN commits the repeated error of attributing this issue to israel being Jewish.
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Gosh I'm a busy guy, what with attributing this and logical progressing that. ;)

Mycroft said:
Except the violence precedes any occupation.
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That has been proven and documented hundreds of times at JREF that Palestinian terrorism and violence predates not only the occupation but the foundation of Israel. (see: Mohammad Amin al-Husayni)

David Swidler said:
It's dangerous - and ultimately irresponsible - to attribute political violence as a way of life to occupation or colonialism, no matter how recent. It allows one to absolve the perpetrators of that violence, placing the blame on the one who established the "legacy."
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And that is the whole point of this thread. It is high time useful idiots and liberals look at what is happening in Gaza and realize that Palestinian violence is not because of "something else".

The Fool said:
Ok lets give ZN his wish...halelujia, fire off the fireworks, it is officially proclaimed that everything always has been always is and always will be the fault of the Palestinians....whats next?
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O' goody....more absurd strawmen...

The Fool said:
David, there are a couple of things that I find confusing about your post...who can push Israel to make concessions? Can you think of an example of Israel being pushed and making a concession?

I'm sure there must be examples of Israeli concessions under pressure but I honestly cannot think of any.
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Well that shows exactly how little you actually know and why you are ill-equipped to debate this topic. Here's a couple famous concessions Israel made: giving up the Sinai for peace with Egypt, turning over large parts of the West Bank and most of the Gaza Strip to Palestinian control as part of the Oslo accords - when the PLO became the PA, remember? Obviously not.


Today in Gaza:

Jun. 6, 2006 9:12

Rocket propelled grenades were fired Tuesday at a security compound in the Gaza Strip, moderately wounding three maintenance workers, security and hospital officials said.
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picture here Palestinian journalists in Gaza City hold a strike in protest over an attack on a building of the Palestinian Broadcast Cooperation in Khan Younis, Monday, June 5, 2006. Hamas militants stormed a Palestine TV broadcast facility in the southern Gaza Strip, which is controlled by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement, kicking workers out of the building and destroying equipment in a shooting rampage, employees said. The incident in Khan Younis came amid growing tensions between the Hamas-led government and the Fatah movement. (AP Photo/Hatem Moussa)
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(edited to add)

a_unique_person said:
He has made it pretty clear, Israel and Zionism is to blame for nothing, the Palestinians for everything.
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It is amazing the multiple strawmen that are attributed to me. At some point the many strawmen will collapse under their own sheer weight in bovine excrement and the facts will have to be addressed. I'm patient...I'll wait.
 
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zenith-nadir said:
It is amazing the multiple strawmen that are attributed to me. At some point the strawmen have to stop under their own sheer weight and the facts have to be discussed. I'm patient...I'll wait.
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I have asked you before, I have seen lists of what the Palestinians are to blame for, nothing of Israel. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
a_unique_person said:
I have asked you before, I have seen lists of what the Palestinians are to blame for, nothing of Israel. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Israel is as screwed up as any other country on earth. It's government does stupid things and makes controversial decisions like any other government on earth. But it sure as hell is no Palestinian Authority.

At some point a_u_p you have to stop blaming Israel for why Palestinians are shooting it out with other Palestinians on the streets of Gaza, or why Palestinians are attacking Palestinian banks in Gaza, or why Palestinians are shooting up Palestine TV broadcast facilities in the southern Gaza Strip or why Palestinians are firing rocket propelled grenades at the aptly named "Preventive Security" building in Gaza.

Perhaps this uniquely Palestinian way of dealing with things has something to do with why several internationally-brokered peace agreements between the Palestinians and Israelis failed to bear fruit...towhich you will disagree I'm sure.

I leave you with this thought... most people can name several Palestinian terror groups easily, but I bet 100% of those same folks cannot name a single Palestinian non-violent resistance group.
 
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