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Time to kick Iran

Yes, it is a theory, your theory, and it's a stupid one.

Quoting yourself, especially yourself, doesn't make it true.

He is a threat because these aren't random and harmless rants.

Could answer Darth's question? What do you think "A World without Zionism" means, really?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2776921&postcount=104


Well, if you tell me what the world would look like without Zionism, you get my answer to that.

And secondly: The link I posted wasn't meant to quote myself - it was meant to point out the replies in here. :rolleyes:
 
Judging from this conversation you've had with Darth, I think you do agree with Ahmadinejad, Oliver.

Especially interesting considering some of Oliver's posts about why Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, and why that's not an infringement of free speech. Apparently it's perfectly okay when Ahmadinejad says it.

Yes, I heard about Hezbollah and I know they get support from Iran. Just like Israel gets financial and military support from the US.

Oliver, the U.S. does not train Israelis to sneak into other countries and blow up crowds of unsuspecting civilians at random. Nor do we fund such activities.
 
Oliver, the U.S. does not train Israelis to sneak into other countries and blow up crowds of unsuspecting civilians at random. Nor do we fund such activities.


Care to explain? :

"Larry Franklin, a Pentagon analyst in the Near East and South Asia office who worked for the Defense Department's Office of Special Plans confessed last August to federal agents he had held meetings with a contact from the Israeli government during which he passed a highly classified document on U.S. policy toward Iran, these sources said.

The document advocated support for Iranian dissidents, covert actions to destabilize the Iranian government, arming opponents of the Islamic regime, propaganda broadcasts into Iran, and other programs, these sources said. The FBI was also interested in finding out if Franklin was involved or could name any Pentagon colleagues who were involved in passing to Israel certain data about National Security Agency intercepts, these sources said."

Sources:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/US_pressure_group_proposes_covert_attack_on_Iran
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/U.S._reported_to_mount_covert_operations_in_Iran
http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/aipac-spying-case-heats-up-richard.html




You do realize that CIA covert operations are responsible for hundreds of thousands civilian deaths - and you do realize that this doesn't make it into your Broadcast Media, don't you?

So what's your point - that the US isn't doing the same since decades? Pffffff. Wake up. :boggled:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22cia+covert+operations%22&btnG=Search
 
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You argued that the President of Iran's rhetoric about Israel doesn't matter because it is just rhetoric.

By the same token then advocating support for dissidents etc isn't the same as actually supporting dissidents etc.
 
I just hope that, if the U.S. are going to kick Iran ass ( not completely a bad idea, maybe ), they will do it much more smartly than what they did with Iraq.
 
I just hope that, if the U.S. are going to kick Iran ass ( not completely a bad idea, maybe ), they will do it much more smartly than what they did with Iraq.


Yeah, two Terror Attacks on civilians like the ones on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would do the Job, right? :confused:

Oh wait, it was Saddam who used WMD's against civilians. :rolleyes:

[/sarcasm]
 
You argued that the President of Iran's rhetoric about Israel doesn't matter because it is just rhetoric.

By the same token then advocating support for dissidents etc isn't the same as actually supporting dissidents etc.


Of course, Iran also has a long history in "advocating support for countries dissidents, covert actions to destabilize governments, arming opponents of an bothersome regime, propaganda broadcasts into foreign countries, and other programs."

...And no, that wasn't a Strawman.
 
That is one possibility and it is a worrying possibility given:
  1. His statements about Israel, zionism and the Holocaust;
  2. His support of Hezbollah and Hamas; and
  3. His apparently apocalyptic religious beliefs.
Quite frankly. If US top-level Politicians talk about: "Mushroom Clouds", "with us or with terrorists", "Axis of Evil", "Terrorstates", "God save America", "God lead me to war" ... and so on, this does sounds exactly as dangerous to the Muslim world as Mahmoud's speech.

And guess what: From the White House we know for sure these are no empty words once they have a new Castro, Chrestniev, Khrushchev, Terrorists, Communists, yadda, yadda, yadda...

What would you think if America would interfere in Australia by trying to topple the Government? It's not their business until they're being attacked. After all, just like Iran, Australia is a sovereign nation, too. End of Story.
By the Way: Does Australia have Nuclear Reactors?

There is no clear indication that he values the wellbeing of his people (and the arabs who would die in the event of an attack on Israel) above his apocalyptic beliefs and his desire to rid the world of zionism.


You're drawing a worst-case scenario. That isn't an objective.
What about this scenario: The most powerful Country in the World is undermined by a group of aggressive people who are trying to change the world militarily and preemptively. This cannot happen in a country with thousands of nuclear weapons, can it?

On the other hand, he doesn't control all the power in Iran and there are (hopefully) people in Iran who do value the wellbeing of the Iranian people.


That's for sure. And they also don't want to get "wiped off the face from the earth" as a response for a nuclear attack. No?

It seems more likely that Iran would use the threat of its nuclear weapons to improve its position in its various disputes and interventions against the Kurdish community, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Central Asia, the rest of the Arab Middle East, Lebanon and Israel.


Nope, it would use it to have the same world-political privilege as the US, France, China, the UK and so on: "Stay away from us, we have nuclear weapons, too."

There is also the risk that it will share its nuclear technology with countries like North Korea or even (and this seems a long way off) with terrorist groups.


Well, who are terrorists? The ones who attack the west? What about the ones who attack the east? Just a matter of POV. You know what I mean, don't you?

There is also the risk that a nuclear armed Iran could spark an arms race which could include (directly) Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Israel and (indirectly) Egypt, India and China.


Yes, that could happen in the Middle-East. Thank you, Israel.

The risk of any or all of this events occurring may not be great but these are the issues that I believe are concerning the international community.


Iraq and the missing WMD's & Terrorists-Links, for example ... exactly.
 
The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) (Bush's experts) translated it similar to Cole's translation. So will you restrain from your obviously misleading statement that he actually meant it the way you love to hear?
Idiot. I read Cole's analysis last year. "The way you love to hear" means you think you can read my mind. I enjoyed the analysis by Mr Cole, and it gave me an opportunity to look into MEMRI.

How familiar are you with the organization?

You have not answered my question, possibly due to you being a coward, possibly due to you having an ulterior motive, possibly due to you not understanding the question, or for another reason I don't understand. Ya see, I don't pretend to read your mind, I can only guess. You evasion remains, but is not going to be honored.

Would you care to tell me how you resolve the contradiction, based on words the Mahmoud used, for example, in saying that the Israelis should go back to Europe (from the Spiegel interview) and how his support for the Pals squares with Israel having a right to exist and also squares with his desire to see Israel changed, or disappearing from the political context per Professor Cole's analysis.

From a MEMRI translation of the Holocaust council led by Mahmoud in Iran:
Ramin added that the aim of the Holocaust conspiracy was to facilitate the establishment of the state of Israel, which would, in turn, provoke the Muslims to rise up, confront the Jews, and massacre them. 'This [conspiracy],' he said, 'conducted by Europe and America, would lead to the total annihilation of global Jewry." Ramin added that 'as a religious Muslim, who believes in the equality of all nations, he must alert [people] to the fact that the state of Israel was established as the result of a conspiracy against the Jews...'"


"The Resolution of the Holocaust Issue Will End in the Destruction of Israel"

"Ramin claimed that the Holocaust was the main reason why Palestine was occupied, while Israel was the main cause of crises and catastrophe in the Middle East. 'So long as Israel exists in the region,' he said, 'there will never be peace and security in the Middle East. So the resolution of the Holocaust issue will end in the destruction of Israel.'
"Turning to President Ahmadinejad’s comments on the Holocaust, Ramin said that he criticized the president for making those comments. 'We do not know whether the Holocaust happened or not and so must find out in order to defend the injured party. My suggestion to him,' he said, 'was to set up an investigative committee on this to collect the supporting documents...
Mahmoud presided over that conference.

Now, Oliver, how far will you go to defend your boy?

DR
 
Idiot. I read Cole's analysis last year. "The way you love to hear" means you think you can read my mind. I enjoyed the analysis by Mr Cole, and it gave me an opportunity to look into MEMRI.

How familiar are you with the organization?

You have not answered my question, possibly due to you being a coward, possibly due to you having an ulterior motive, possibly due to you not understanding the question, or for another reason I don't understand. Ya see, I don't pretend to read your mind, I can only guess. You evasion remains, but is not going to be honored.

Would you care to tell me how you resolve the contradiction, based on words the Mahmoud used, for example, in saying that the Israelis should go back to Europe (from the Spiegel interview) and how his support for the Pals squares with Israel having a right to exist and also squares with his desire to see Israel changed, or disappearing from the political context per Professor Cole's analysis.

From a MEMRI translation of the Holocaust council led by Mahmoud in Iran:

Mahmoud presided over that conference.

Now, Oliver, how far will you go to defend your boy?

DR


Nope, I can't read your mind. You just took the phrase "Wiping off the map" as fact. And obviously, you were wrong about the phrase, Mr. Skeptic.

I also don't know much about MEMRI, beside the fact that they are "counseling" the administration.

Well, my answer to your question would completely derail this thread - because even if I disagree with Iran's President, I don't agree with you, either.

"We do not know whether the Holocaust happened or not"
Well, you really think I have to comment on this [Rule8]?

And no: Both sides are nuts - so either you say that Bush is my boy, too - or you refuse to make this claim that Mahmoud is "my boy".
 
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And no: Both sides are nuts.
Fair enough, seen from a third side.

Enough evasion, Oliver. How do you resolve the contradiction about your nonsensical and self contradictory answer about "what a world without Zionism means to you."

Or, you can admit that your answer was utter nonsense.

DR
 
Fair enough, seen from a third side.

Enough evasion, Oliver. How do you resolve the contradiction about your nonsensical and self contradictory answer about "what a world without Zionism means to you."

Or, you can admit that your answer was utter nonsense.

DR


If your question was about my opinion about Zionism:

I agree with their main idea - but I disagree with their aggressive "No matter what"-policies to archive this goal.


If you insist to get a literal answer to your question:

"what a world without Zionism means to you."
It would mean a world with far less aggression on both sides.


If your question was about Mahmoud's Point of View:

He's an Idiot to say it publicly.
He's an Idiot if he thinks this way.
He's a politician if he said it to gain voters.
He's straightway nuts if he wanted to impress the western world.

Your question was pretty unclear, don't you think?
 
"what a world without Zionism means to you."It would mean a world with far less aggression on both sides.
OK, let's capture that thought. In order to get to the point of far less aggression on "both" sides, whatever that means, how does one remove Zionism from Israel?

How, for example, would you remove Christianity, in its many flavors, from American culture?

It's a similar problem, though in different scale, and as I see it, a similar absurdity.

Me, I think "a world without Zionism" means, under the covers and between the sheets,

"Israel as a nation state and a political entity ceases to exist"

either
by war
by ethnic cleansing
by somehow removing Israelis from The Holy Land (to Madagascar, for example)

and replacing them with Arabs and Muslims in the Holy Land.

I'd be curious to know what else it could, or would, mean. Without the Zionist movement, and Zionism, Israel would not today exist as a Jewish led nation state. Sort of a "founding fathers" deal.

How do you get rid of Zionism without getting rid of Israel? Israel's creation and long term viability is the core goal, the fundamental aim, of the Zionist movement.

I'd be curious to know if Cleon or Web or gtc could share a thought on how one could excise Zionism as a part of Israel's political weave and leave Israel intact.

Is that possible?

DR
 
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OK, let's capture that thought. In order to get to the point of far less aggression on "both" sides, whatever that means, how does one remove Zionism from Israel?

How, for example, would you remove Christianity, in its many flavors, from American culture?

It's a similar problem, though in different scale, and as I see it, a similar absurdity.

Me, I think "a world without Zionism" means, under the covers and between the sheets,

"Israel as a nation state and a political entity ceases to exist"

either
by war
by ethnic cleansing
by somehow removing Israelis from The Holy Land (to Madagascar, for example)

and replacing them with Arabs and Muslims in the Holy Land.

I'd be curious to know what else it could, or would, mean. Without the Zionist movement, and Zionism, Israel would not today exist as a Jewish led nation state. Sort of a "founding fathers" deal.

How do you get rid of Zionism without getting rid of Israel? Israel's creation and long term viability is the core goal, the fundamental aim, of the Zionist movement.

I'd be curious to know if Cleon or Web or gtc could share a thought on how one could excise Zionism as a part of Israel's political weave and leave Israel intact.

Is that possible?

DR


Well, that's what I meant by saying: "Once Israel is accepted on all sides, the Zionist-Movement will vanish".

Zionism is no religion - I would rather compare it to the American "Independence Movement": Once they were independent from England, there was no need to have a movement fighting for independence anymore.

Your religious analogies doesn't make sense, logically.
 
Zionism, when used by Anti-semites and holocaust deniers, typically means a cabal of evil plotters who rule the world, Oliver. Surely, you know this.


Of course I know the whining on both sides - but my point still is, and logically/factually it doesn't matter if someone likes it or not, Iran is no threat in comparison to America. Of course - from neutral point of view - if you know what "neutral POV" means.
 
The last information I have is from Wikipedia:



Basically you're right. Israels military power is strong enough to bomb every attacker back to Stonehenge. I have no Idea why America has to play the Nanny for Israel. I would prefer they take a neutral position and put pressure on both sides to establish peace. That should have happened a long time ago.

No free country should ever be neutral with respect to a conflict between another free country and a dictatorship.

There is no neutrality between "leave us alone" and "we're gonna wipe you off the face of the Earth and kill every last one of you".
 
No free country should ever be neutral with respect to a conflict between another free country and a dictatorship.

There is no neutrality between "leave us alone" and "we're gonna wipe you off the face of the Earth and kill every last one of you".


So you don't agree with the good, old principle of "No one should be judged by his "Freedom of Speech" unless he harms other people"?

Iran is a sovereign country - like the US. And your Point of View is...?

"But, but, but..."? :boggled:
 

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