It is important to sensibly decide as to when one's "belief" is to be engaged with a particular subject. A skeptic will remain skeptical until this happens. Robinson seems to be saying that she/he does not know whether to be skeptical about certain things or not.
Thoughts about the JREF Million Dollar Challenge
- Thread starter robinson
- Start date
I saw Randi on TV last night, on Geographic "IS IT REAL?" about ghost and stuff. The utter stupidity of people talking about orbs (moths reflected in the camera light), as well as the sheer idiocy of the entire thing, contrasted with the all too short clips of Randi, made me think about the MDC, this forum, and how GOOD IT IS that someone like Randi and the JREF combat the forces of stupidity, ignorance, superstition, con artist, fakes, and the delusional.
I almost felt guilty about my sometimes criticism of the MDC application process.
Then I realized Randi and company aren't going to be bothered by it. And genuine critics are good company, if you want the truth.
I almost felt guilty about my sometimes criticism of the MDC application process.
Then I realized Randi and company aren't going to be bothered by it. And genuine critics are good company, if you want the truth.
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OK I am wondering if anybody else has tried this.
I'm having a thought about the JREF Million Dollar Challenge: Uhh, wait, urm, aah, sunofa..., nng, lsss, hold on, wrfff, argh, whattha, lrsssbbllllfffttt, oooOOh, git'erdunnnn, schmolyyyaaaAAAAAA [fortissimo] AAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHH fffffllllpprrrrrrttppprrrttttzzzzzmmmbbbllllppprtt ... [mezzopiano] ffffffffttbllllbpp. [pianissimo] Blb.
(Relieved sigh.)
Just a little gas. Carry on.
(Relieved sigh.)
Just a little gas. Carry on.
IMNSHO, if these parts of the challenge are not changed, there isn't a chance of anyone "famous" accepting the challenge.
According to that, if I can show, under proper conditions, evidence of a paranormal event, I get a million dollars. (Whoohoo!)
But when you get to the actual "rules", I can't.
So instead of demonstrating "a paranormal event", now it is what "power or abilities" will be evidenced, and it is restricted to one person, demonstrating their "powers or abilities". In no uncertain terms can anyone apply, unless they claim to have some ability. And the same person with a "power or ability" has to do all the negotiations, jump through all the hoops, answer mail, write stuff up, spend months trying to come some kind of agreement, as well as show up when and where Randi or others demand. You can't have a lawyer or an agent handle the legwork for you, much less apply.
This is not how the world works. While you might get some fruitcakes and nuts trying to do this, nobody with an income, an agent, and a reputation is going to do it, especially considering the extreme hostility of the JREF, in the person of James Randi. (don't scoff, it is in the FAQs kids)
Even if changes are made to overcome that, then you have the real deal killer.
Considering that the first e-mail or print letters, as well as the challenge applications, are published online, along with hostile commentary, I can't see a public person submitting to the challenge, or even asking what would be considered a fair test. Or, assuming somebody is insane enough to go through a six month conflict working out the details, and actually demonstrates something, anything, any part of the results can be used however the JREF or Randi chooses. Forever. Over and over.
Win or lose, the JREF has media rights to everything.
But all this is moot, AFAIC, because the very definition of paranormal or supernatural, is that it can't be demonstrated, repeated, verified, or recorded. If those conditions are met, it can't be paranormal, by definition.
Yes this is waved off as not an issue, if Randi says it is supernatural, you can take the challenge. But defining what is the event, and what would be proof, is the very heart of a challenge.
Just more thoughts about the MDC.
According to that, if I can show, under proper conditions, evidence of a paranormal event, I get a million dollars. (Whoohoo!)
But when you get to the actual "rules", I can't.
So instead of demonstrating "a paranormal event", now it is what "power or abilities" will be evidenced, and it is restricted to one person, demonstrating their "powers or abilities". In no uncertain terms can anyone apply, unless they claim to have some ability. And the same person with a "power or ability" has to do all the negotiations, jump through all the hoops, answer mail, write stuff up, spend months trying to come some kind of agreement, as well as show up when and where Randi or others demand. You can't have a lawyer or an agent handle the legwork for you, much less apply.
This is not how the world works. While you might get some fruitcakes and nuts trying to do this, nobody with an income, an agent, and a reputation is going to do it, especially considering the extreme hostility of the JREF, in the person of James Randi. (don't scoff, it is in the FAQs kids)
Even if changes are made to overcome that, then you have the real deal killer.
Considering that the first e-mail or print letters, as well as the challenge applications, are published online, along with hostile commentary, I can't see a public person submitting to the challenge, or even asking what would be considered a fair test. Or, assuming somebody is insane enough to go through a six month conflict working out the details, and actually demonstrates something, anything, any part of the results can be used however the JREF or Randi chooses. Forever. Over and over.
Win or lose, the JREF has media rights to everything.
But all this is moot, AFAIC, because the very definition of paranormal or supernatural, is that it can't be demonstrated, repeated, verified, or recorded. If those conditions are met, it can't be paranormal, by definition.
Yes this is waved off as not an issue, if Randi says it is supernatural, you can take the challenge. But defining what is the event, and what would be proof, is the very heart of a challenge.
Just more thoughts about the MDC.
Perhaps your interpretation of the rules is not correct.
Perhaps it is.
Perhaps the ability to demonstrate a paranormal event will fit the definition of "power", whether or not you believe such ability to be paranormal itself (I suspect it will suffice).
Perhaps an application could be prepared by a lawyer or agent, and then signed by the "applicant" and be accepted by JREF (I suspect it could).
Perhaps an applicant could appoint a representative to handle all communication with the JREF (I suspect, if done properly, this would be acceptable to JREF).
Perhaps Randi is actually a closet woo, and it is his desperate hope to one day vindicate his secret beliefs; that he awaits a champion to save him from this shell of false skepticism and show the world what wonders await those willing to discard dependence on mere reason and study.
But really, how could one know for sure? I mean, is there a person that could be asked if such things are possible? Is there no authority that can speak on behalf of JREF to clarify such uncertainty?
Nah, I don't think so either. There's no one we could PM with questions like these. I think we're better off just putting forth ideas with no support and consider them just as good as anyone else's opinion, 'cause there's no authority here.
Perhaps it is.
Perhaps the ability to demonstrate a paranormal event will fit the definition of "power", whether or not you believe such ability to be paranormal itself (I suspect it will suffice).
Perhaps an application could be prepared by a lawyer or agent, and then signed by the "applicant" and be accepted by JREF (I suspect it could).
Perhaps an applicant could appoint a representative to handle all communication with the JREF (I suspect, if done properly, this would be acceptable to JREF).
Perhaps Randi is actually a closet woo, and it is his desperate hope to one day vindicate his secret beliefs; that he awaits a champion to save him from this shell of false skepticism and show the world what wonders await those willing to discard dependence on mere reason and study.
But really, how could one know for sure? I mean, is there a person that could be asked if such things are possible? Is there no authority that can speak on behalf of JREF to clarify such uncertainty?
Nah, I don't think so either. There's no one we could PM with questions like these. I think we're better off just putting forth ideas with no support and consider them just as good as anyone else's opinion, 'cause there's no authority here.
That's one reason why I am always hesitant to engage in debate over the Challenge rules. Usually, it's just ridiculous blather.
I've had many interesting and informative discussions about the MDC. Sometimes, the user filter is your friend.
A first report on my experiments with the MDC and the common man. I must report that I abandoned my efforts after several uncomfortable experiences with skeptics. Any thoughts about this are welcome.
A brief example should suffice. When MDC is used, it is just an abbreviation of saying "million dollar challenge".
Subject 1 (hard nosed logic driven rocket scientist)
Have you heard of the MDC?
There is a lot more, but I'm getting tense just thinking about it.
A brief example should suffice. When MDC is used, it is just an abbreviation of saying "million dollar challenge".
Subject 1 (hard nosed logic driven rocket scientist)
Have you heard of the MDC?
The James Randi Million dollar challenge?
A famous magician.
What about his MDC?
Have you heard of it?
The James Randi MDC!
You don't know?
About the MDC!!
I'm asking you! Do you know about it?
Grrr... ok you haven't heard of it?
I know, but BEFORE now had you heard of it?
Never mind.
Never mind the damn question.
What? What did I ask you?
I asked if you had heard of the James Randi Million dollar challenge!
OK I am taking that as a "no".
Because you don't know about it.
It.
No. I am trying to gather information.
About the MDC!
(I take several deep breathes) James Randi offers a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a paranormal event.
Why what?
Because he wants to expand his understanding of the Universe, and he exposes frauds.
He uses the MDC to show frauds are deluded, fakes, ripping people off.
Like faith healing, Chi, dowsing...
Dowsing. Finding water with just their mind and a stick.
Finding water underground using a wooden stick, or some other device.
No! The walk around and it detects water underground!
No no! People actually believe they can do this.
So the MDC is for them to prove this! They get a million dollars if they can show this.
That they can find water like that.
About what?
I wanted to know if you heard of it. What you think.
No, about the MDC!
No wait, I just wanted to ...
Shhh! Wait, stop...
There is a lot more, but I'm getting tense just thinking about it.
My thoughts are: Is there a point to any of this?
AgingYoung
Muse
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robinson,
I do see your point and if I may I'll clarify it. There are a lot of people that have never heard of Mr. Randi or his challenge. It wasn't that long ago that I had no idea who this card shuffling magician was much less his challenge. If you were to ask people who David Copperfield is more people would know.
I think the challenge is a valuable asset to the world generally. If I might state the obvious it was Mr. Randi's vision. There are not many people in the world that tenaciously stick to a vision long enough to make a difference or to cause a great idea to become reality. Mr. Randi is such a rarity.
Gene
I do see your point and if I may I'll clarify it. There are a lot of people that have never heard of Mr. Randi or his challenge. It wasn't that long ago that I had no idea who this card shuffling magician was much less his challenge. If you were to ask people who David Copperfield is more people would know.
I think the challenge is a valuable asset to the world generally. If I might state the obvious it was Mr. Randi's vision. There are not many people in the world that tenaciously stick to a vision long enough to make a difference or to cause a great idea to become reality. Mr. Randi is such a rarity.
Gene
Just to clarify, the "no point" bit had nothing to do with the MDC and everything to do with your post.
I don't get your point.