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Thoughts about the JREF Million Dollar Challenge

I think the challenge is great. The rules are simple. If anything, I want it to be more pro-active and make it be known as best they can that they want to test someone so the general public can see some of the fraudsters. Be good to almost see a general consensus creep into mainstream life when people make bold claims that people dont just believe it but see it as what it is - just claims.

Crow bot - someone may initially pass the test using a cheating method but then upon further testing by the suddenly interested scientific community they would be exposed.
 
I don't know if this is true or not, but there is some sort of "rule" or "law" that appears in many different cultures and religions about using "powers" for profit or ego. It is in the ancient Yogi text, in Theosophical teachings, in religions, in Zen and Kung Fu and many others. It is taught that if you use sacred or spiritual powers for gain, you lose them, or they backfire somehow.

In short, it is a bad thing. So it is quite possible that people who believe they really have "powers" will not try to make money, gain fame, or even engage in fights over the existence of such things, based on what they have been taught.

Of course that sounds like a cop out, but this axiom does exist, and no doubt exist in the mind of the true believer, leading to about a zero percent chance that anybody who follows the precepts that surround "powers" and spiritual lifestyle would even consider trying to win money with a "God given gift".

And yet they have no problem charging hundreds of pounds for spouting some meaningless drivel. If they really don't want to make money or only use their powers for good, why can't they just give it all to charity? If they refuse to help anyone except a few suckers that live locally, how is that not going directly against these rules they claim to have? If they really believe all this, they should at least be consistent about it.

It is one of the more or less silly parts of the MDC as well. If you Challenge that something is not real, but then want to work out a protocol to show it is, I just think, WTF???

That's why it is a challenge. Randi says "I don't believe in this crap, so I challenge you to prove me wrong". The protocol is only there to ensure that only the looked-for effect is being observed, and not fraud or some other non-paranormal effect.
 
Oh no, more thinking

Hey Cuddles!

Yeah, it is a twisty maze of screwy stuff out there in woo land. But if somebody is making real money being a "pyschic", there is no way they will take a challenge for money, that could make them look bad. (like, duh!). Like the religious crooks "healing" the faithful. Not a chance in hell they would take some MDC, not when they are already making millions.

My thoughts on protocol revolve around the pain that someone must go through, just getting to a point where anything can happen. I'm talking about the poor JREF rep, (or poor sod at some other organization that offer money to prove it). Imagine all the crap to wade through, with not even a glimpse of some real entertainment to come of it.

All that being said, my points above (in this topic) still stand. If you want someone to prove an event to three people before you can even apply, why wouldn't there be some concrete examples of what would be proof?

heh

I mean c'mon, running almost everyone off before they even get to the door is no fun at all.

:)
 
...
My thoughts on protocol revolve around the pain that someone must go through, just getting to a point where anything can happen. I'm talking about the poor JREF rep, (or poor sod at some other organization that offer money to prove it). Imagine all the crap to wade through, with not even a glimpse of some real entertainment to come of it.

All that being said, my points above (in this topic) still stand. If you want someone to prove an event to three people before you can even apply, why wouldn't there be some concrete examples of what would be proof?

heh

I mean c'mon, running almost everyone off before they even get to the door is no fun at all.

:)

The affidavits serve important purposes, mainly: Reducing the workload for JREF while giving the future applicant a first test to verify his abilities while eliminating self-delusion.

If this does not provide you with entertainment or fun, robinson, perhaps it's because it isn't meant to.
 
I don't know if this is true or not, but there is some sort of "rule" or "law" that appears in many different cultures and religions about using "powers" for profit or ego.
(snip)
What a great out eh? "I can't demonstrate my powers because I will lose them".

I'd say it's no coincidence that that rule developed in widespread cultures and places. Those who claimed to have powers that didn't actually exist, needed an out to prevent having to demonstrate them on demand, in their own cultures, long before Randy. So the "out" developed right along with the cultural phenomenon of the so-called powers.
 
Hmmm thinking

Maybe it is crazy, but if you say you want somebody to prove something, and you will give them a million bucks to do so, and you get to decide what is proof, why not just state clearly the test for each power, event, or ability?

Why involve them in some long drawn out protocol first? Why not start with a test you have designed, or used before, and work out any sticking points about that? I mean it. C'mon, what is up with the very nature of the challenge having to be hammered out?

If you are just going after the celebrities in the paranormal world, like Sylvia, it should not be that hard to do a first draft of a protocol based on the public claims she has already made. Make a protocol designed to test whether she can actually talk to the dead. Then you say to her, "You say you can talk to the dead. Let's test that. You do X, Y, and Z and I'll give you a million dollars. If you can't do X, Y, and Z, tell me what you can do and we'll change the test."

Wow. How cool is that?

And it was not just useful to win arguments with idiots, but even more so with intelligent people who could comprehend the extent of the woo failure to take the Challenge.

I'm sceptical of many of the claims made about "winning" arguments, based on something not done by somebody I don't know, about something that is not clear.

I'm not sure there is any winning when it comes to arguments with people who believe in something not proved. From a scientific point of view, everything not proved is still open to research, testing, theory, and mental rumination. Of course some people think if something has not been observed then it doesn't exist, but history shows a continous stream of discoveries about things that didn't exist at one time. In fact, most of the stuff going on in the Universe can't be observed, but is believed to exist.

At least I believe in it, based on data from instruments that can detect invisible stuff. As far as I can tell, gravity is real, but nobody has ever observed it, we don't know how it works, and it doesn't seem to work at very tiny levels. Only on really big stuff. (Of course we observe the effects, but that is not the same thing as observing "gravity", which could be a warping of space-time, for all we know, and gracity doesn't even exist.)

heh

But I digress. :D I think that there is no paranormal stuff. But I also think there is some really strange stuff going on, based on my scientific observations, over a period of 40 years. While I agree with the basic premise that a lot of stuff is woo, just not happening, I know from experiments that the stuff that IS happening, is really strange, and needs scientific investigation to be observed. Including instruments to detect invisible events.

But I don't think the MDC is about that. In fact, I just read it is about publicity for JREF. And exposing frauds. From my experience, you can show somebody the absurdity of a "paranormal" event, and it doesn't seem to make any difference at all. But to be fair, you can also show a sceptical scientist something that seems to go against "accepted" knowledge, and they won't believe it either.

It seems to be human nature.

Just thinking about the MDC again. So very interesting.
 
From Robinson : "instruments to detect invisible events."

Meaninglessness must have weight?
 
I don't understand your comment at all.

heh

Invisble events, as well as energies, are common in scientific investigation. Without intruments, a lot of the Universe is invisible to us. I was just thinking that if you can't get a scientific event to pass the MDC, without expensive, sensitive scientific instruments, and a lot of expense to use them, then how impossible would any woo-like new scientific stuff ever have a chance?
 
I don't understand your comment at all.

heh

Invisble events, as well as energies, are common in scientific investigation. Without intruments, a lot of the Universe is invisible to us. I was just thinking that if you can't get a scientific event to pass the MDC, without expensive, sensitive scientific instruments, and a lot of expense to use them, then how impossible would any woo-like new scientific stuff ever have a chance?

They would have a chance because they claim to have a noticeable effect on the real world. If they don't claim this, then how can they claim to be doing anything at all? If they do claim this, then of course we can measure it.
 
"...a noticeable effect on the real world." I like that phrase. Of course there is nothing in the challenge about it, but it sums up my thoughts about what we consider "real". And it is just those things, the events that have an effect, that we want to know more about.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/dowsing_jse_com.html

Somewhere I'm sure that information has been debunked. The problem is, the arguements that one reads are often appeals to authority, rather than anything one can depend upon.
 
And it is just those things, the events that have an effect, that we want to know more about.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/dowsing_jse_com.html

Somewhere I'm sure that information has been debunked.

Probably. Certainly dowsers in general have been.

And fools keep believing in them anyway, and trying to scrape up evidence that dowsing worked in this one instance.

If you're suggesting that dowsing worked this one time, why doesn't it work any time someone's doing a tightly controlled test?
 
I don't know. The article mentions that the effect is not effective using buried pipes. But states clearly that it works in deep underground water.

And that they spent 10 years not only documenting, but actually effecting the real world by drilling wells that provided water.

I don't understand the one instance remark.

This isn't some woo person, or woo publication. It is a peer reviewed scientific publication, and a well trained scientist.

Says Betz: I’m a scientist, and those are my best plausible scientific hypotheses at this point. But there are two things that I am certain of after ten years of field research. A combination of dowsing and modern hydrogeophysical techniques can be both more successful and far less expensive than we had thought. And we need to run a lot more tests, because we have established that dowsing works, but have no idea how or why.

He seems to be well aware that it doesn't work in a lab, but works in the real world. I find that interesting. I want to know the truth.
 
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This isn't some woo person, or woo publication. It is a peer reviewed scientific publication

Well, it's the JSE. Its neutrality has at times been questioned, and its "peer review" process is not as transparent as other journals. Some would call it a woo publication.
 
It is a peer reviewed scientific publication.

This (ahem) is not necessarily true.

From Wikipedia

Its "Instructions for Authors" states that papers are subjected to peer review "at the discretion of the Editor-in-Chief".

So, um, it's peer-reviewed except when it isn't?
 
The Journal of Scientific Exploration is a joke. It's not enough to do peer review, even when they do. What if Uri Geller were one of the reviewers? After all, Brian Josephson's on the editorial board, or was last time I sullied my hands with a copy.

Once legitimate journals can go bad too, while still keeping up a charade of peer review. The journal Experimental & Molecular Pathology recently published four consecutive papers by W John Martin on his 'stealth virus' gobbleldygook, culminating in one which suggested that stealth viruses (which only Martin has ever seen) work by harvesting energy from the aether, and react differently to homoeopathic preparations than to plain solvent. It's utter bunk, but when I enquired the editor assured me that the article had been peer-reviewed.

Back to JSE, remember when Derren Brown went around the US persuading various newagers that he had special powers. One of his subjects (I think it was the lady he fooled with psychic diagnosis?) insisted they should write up the 'experiment' in a journal. Guess which...
 

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