Thoughtful responses to this H1N1 poster:

[Eos of the Eons]

Seasonal flu also kills otherwise healthy individuals, including children.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/16134657.html

 

[Jorghnassen]

I'd like to see more data backing this up, the difference in behaviour between the A(H1N1)v and the seasonal flu, the best data as usual. It's a very interesting point, quite alarming too. Are there really no such examples from the usual seasonal influenza?

Well, there are cases as Eos points out, but they are rare. This one really does strike younger age groups more than seasonal flu. One of the possible explanations I've seen is that the older generations have better immunity to this H1N1 because they were exposed to the Hong Kong flu back in the 50's/60's.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

RE: Seasonal Flu vs H1N1 death counts
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/16/h1n1-deaths.html

A 2007 study of looking at 10 years of influenza deaths in Canada reported that deaths directly attributed to flu made up only eight per cent of all influenza-related deaths in a given year.
In most cases, influenza contributes to or hastens death. A bout of flu can trigger a heart attack in someone with heart disease. But the cause of death is likely to be listed as a heart attack.

So, since deaths so far counted for H1N1 have been directly attributed, you would have to times that by 5 to get a reasonable tally for all deaths that H1N1 contributed to (I suck at math)?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Guess who Alberta is allowing to be vaccinated at the moment? Seniors!!! And kids UNDER 5. Yep, everyone in between that doesn't have asthma or diabetes are still spreading this around. Yeah, I'm still pissed my kids were sick for a week. Although, I'm happy it didn't kill them.

 

[The Atheist]

Does 2009H1N1 appear to be protective against seasonal flu? Any data from the southern hemisphere which could be used to test this idea?

It doesn't protect against seasonal 'flu, but it squeezes the seasonal 'flu out of existence.

Once H1N1 had become the dominant strain of influenza down here, the seasonal version disappeared.

New Zealand usually has ~300 deaths due to influenza. This year, pandemic deaths have been a grand total of 20 to date. There are no statistics I know of available for seasonal 'flu figures, but since we didn't have the usual epidemic of seasonal 'flu, I imagine those deaths are close to nil.

Be quite ironic of vaccinating against H1N1 caused seasonal 'flu to kill a whole load of people.

 

[The Atheist]

Perspective.

In what way is that perspective?

Are you suggesting that 50M people will die from H1N1?

If not, your graph is irrelevant, not perspective.

(Note: it's not 1919 any more)

 

[Eos of the Eons]

New Zealand usually has ~300 deaths due to influenza. This year, pandemic deaths have been a grand total of 20 to date. There are no statistics I know of available for seasonal 'flu figures, but since we didn't have the usual epidemic of seasonal 'flu, I imagine those deaths are close to nil.

Be quite ironic of vaccinating against H1N1 caused seasonal 'flu to kill a whole load of people.

See my post. There are different counts involved at the moment. H1N1, once tallied the way the seasonal flu deaths usually are, could kill even more people, and has already killed more young people than the seasonal flu does.

I think it usually kills 85 children a year here, and 161 have already died. Trying to find a link...

Since April 26, CDC has received 145 reports of pediatric deaths associated with influenza infection. Of these, 129 (89%) cases were associated with laboratory-confirmed 2009 pandemic influenza A (H1N1) virus. The remaining 16 pediatric deaths were associated with seasonal influenza or an influenza A virus for which the subtype was undetermined. In comparison, during the preceding five influenza seasons, the total number of reported pediatric influenza deaths ranged from 46 to 153, with an average of 82 deaths each year.

129 Deaths from H1N1, when the average is 82/year, but also add the 16 who died from seasonal flu.

Seasonal flu is circulating.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5844a4.htm

And this season's flus have JUST started!!! Way more deaths to come if the vaccine is not taken up.

 

[Segnosaur]

Once H1N1 had become the dominant strain of influenza down here, the seasonal version disappeared.

New Zealand usually has ~300 deaths due to influenza. This year, pandemic deaths have been a grand total of 20 to date. There are no statistics I know of available for seasonal 'flu figures, but since we didn't have the usual epidemic of seasonal 'flu, I imagine those deaths are close to nil.

I believe Australia had a similar situation (with fewer deaths/replacement of seasonal flu with H1N1).

However, there is no guarantee that the rest of the world will have the same death rate for H1N1 that you had down under. Remember, you had the start of your flu season much closer to the time this virus first appeared, and you are geographically isolated from the probable source of the virus (i.e. Mexico).

For those of us in the Northern hemisphere, the virus has had a longer time and more opportunity to become entrenched prior to the start of the flu season. This might allow H1N1 to spread to more people once the proper flu season starts.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

It doesn't protect against seasonal 'flu, but it squeezes the seasonal 'flu out of existence.

Once H1N1 had become the dominant strain of influenza down here, the seasonal version disappeared.

<snip>

If true, I wonder why that happened?

Why should 2009H1N1 reduce the number of people who contract seasonal flu?

 

[Segnosaur]

If true, I wonder why that happened?

Why should 2009H1N1 reduce the number of people who contract seasonal flu?

It probably wasn't so much a case that H1N1 reduced the number of people with seasonal flu, it was probably just that the strains of seasonal flu going around weren't particularly contagious. If it wasn't for H1N1, the flu season could have been really really light, as opposed to more or less 'average'.

 

[Capsid]

If true, I wonder why that happened?

Why should 2009H1N1 reduce the number of people who contract seasonal flu?

Virus interference? An infection with one virus can inhibit the infection of another. It's where the word interferon comes from.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Virus interference? An infection with one virus can inhibit the infection of another. It's where the word interferon comes from.

That sounds reasonable.

http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/mhunt/interferon.htm

 

[truethat]

Am I really in the dark here? I haven't gotten the vaccine for either my kids or myself. It just seemed like a lot of hooplah to me over nothing. Every year we hear about the new flu that is supposed to be the second coming of the black plague. I just always expect my body to be able to do it's job and handle diseases.

I have never given my kids immunizations past the ones you need to get into school. I've never given them amoxicilin or any of the doctor prescribed things that make parents feel like they are "fighting disease" and seriously my kids are never sick. I have a 15 year old a 14 year old and a 9 year old. All boys and all in public schools.

I can count on three fingers the number of times they have been sick enough to stay in bed since they have been born.

So someone please explain to me why we don't expect our bodies to be able to fight off infections on their own?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Am I really in the dark here? I haven't gotten the vaccine for either my kids or myself. It just seemed like a lot of hooplah to me over nothing. Every year we hear about the new flu that is supposed to be the second coming of the black plague. I just always expect my body to be able to do it's job and handle diseases.

I have never given my kids immunizations past the ones you need to get into school. I've never given them amoxicilin or any of the doctor prescribed things that make parents feel like they are "fighting disease" and seriously my kids are never sick. I have a 15 year old a 14 year old and a 9 year old. All boys and all in public schools.

I can count on three fingers the number of times they have been sick enough to stay in bed since they have been born.

So someone please explain to me why we don't expect our bodies to be able to fight off infections on their own?

If you get the flu virus that you've had before, or is close to ones you've had before, then you'll get sick that first time once and not show many other symptoms the next time around. So, if you don't get sick every year then there may be herd immunity from those vaccinated, or you weren't exposed because of other reasons, etc. This novel H1N1 pandemic strain is NEW to us, so you will have some kind of symptoms if exposed, and you never know if you can fight it off better due to the kinds of receptors you have, etc. This pandemic strain is deadly since it settles deeper in the lungs, and people under 65 have never been exposed to any strain like it before. It is also more severe for younger folks than the regular yearly flu has been because of the way it gets into the lungs.

Not everyone is the same, and not everyone has the exact same immune system, and not every flu bug (yearly or otherwise) is the same since this bug mutates like crazy. You might get a bug that is really deadly for your type of physiology, you just never know. Or, if you get a seondary infection like pneumonia once your immune system is down with the flu. Pneumonia is the real killer in the usual flu seasons. But this bug is killing kids and younger adults without pneumonia to finish them off.


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_90673.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090910083915.htm

The pandemic influenza virus's ability to stick to the additional receptors may explain why the virus replicates and spreads between cells more quickly: if a flu virus can bind to more than one type of receptor, it can attach itself to a larger area of the respiratory tract, infecting more cells and causing a more serious infection.
...Our new research shows how the virus does this - by attaching to receptors mostly found on cells deep in the lungs. This is something seasonal flu cannot do."

Did you know that viruses invade our cells, get inside them where the immune system can't get at them? Then they hijack our dna and turn our cells into virus making factories? Our immune system does have ways to thwart this process once you are infected, but vaccines prevent this process from getting way too far.

 

[fls]

So someone please explain to me why we don't expect our bodies to be able to fight off infections on their own?

Because many people die or are disabled due to infection?

Linda

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Because many people die or are disabled due to infection?

Linda

Oh, but yaaaa knowwww, they didn't live right I've noticed smokers get bronchitis more than non-smokers, so antivaxxers extrapolate and say if you live clean with no air pollution, no smokers, and eat only carrot juice smoothies with garlic chasers, then you'll live with no infections ever cuz some invisible barrier blocks viruses somehow, and if they get sick they figure it is cuz "stress" is bringing their immune system down and the barrier was weakened, blah blah blah.

These people need a good lesson in microbiology, but, whatever.

 

[truethat]

I understand these things. I'm not understanding however why I would expect my body to not be able to fight off infection when it does successfully on a regular basis.

I'm not "anti vaccine" I'm just wondering why everyone is being told to get this vaccination when in general most people will not be killed by it?

I'm not trying to be difficult just to understand.

If you are generally healthy without a history of succumbing to flu or colds, if you rarely get sick when those around you do, are you more likely to get sick from the Swine flu or more likely NOT to get sick?

I can understand telling babies and older people to get a vaccine but most people do not die from flu. So why is this being called a pandemic?

Oh and one more thing maybe Linda can explain.

The people around me who have gotten the vaccine have gotten a cold the next day. Also my sister who vaccinates amoxicillins up the wazoo has a child that is perpetually sick. She's 4 years old and has been sick about once or twice a month for the last year or so. She's also developed severe nut allergies.

When she was born her parent's doctors told them that they should avoid giving her nut products because she could develope allergies. So they didn't. NOW doctors are saying avoiding nuts can actually cause allergies.

I don't understand all this effort. My kids have no allergies and are never sick and I'm the laziest parent on the face of the earth when it comes to these things.

 

[Segnosaur]

I have never given my kids immunizations past the ones you need to get into school. I've never given them amoxicilin or any of the doctor prescribed things that make parents feel like they are "fighting disease" and seriously my kids are never sick.

Ummm... Amoxicillin is an antibiotic used for bacterial infections. I'm assuming if a doctor prescribed it, it was because your children actually were sick. (Its certainly not something you'd give as a preventative measure.)

I can count on three fingers the number of times they have been sick enough to stay in bed since they have been born.

Wouldn't it have been better had your kids not been home sick in bed for those 3 times, if you could have prevented it with little or no effort? After all, being sick isn't a pleasant experience. Makes you feel miserable, not to mention making it harder for them to get caught up in school. Or do you think suffering builds character?

So someone please explain to me why we don't expect our bodies to be able to fight off infections on their own?

For much the same reason that we buy home insurance, or for the same reason we have laws against drunk driving... Usually when there is an illness going around, most people don't get sick. And usually those that do get better on their own. But the minority of people who do get ill (and sometimes quite seriously) being immunized will help make their life much much better.

The other issue is herd immunity. You may feel confident that you and your children can fight off any viruses that come your way. However, not everyone will be that lucky. Elderly people and those with compromised immune systems will be less able to fight off influenza (or anything else that comes along). Getting immunized yourself will reduce the chance you will pass any illness on to those people who can't handle getting sick.

 

[fls]

I understand these things. I'm not understanding however why I would expect my body to not be able to fight off infection when it does successfully on a regular basis.

I'm not "anti vaccine" I'm just wondering why everyone is being told to get this vaccination when in general most people will not be killed by it?

Then tell us who is going to get sick and die from it and we'll just tell them to get vaccinated.

Linda

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I understand these things. I'm not understanding however why I would expect my body to not be able to fight off infection when it does successfully on a regular basis.

I'm not "anti vaccine" I'm just wondering why everyone is being told to get this vaccination when in general most people will not be killed by it?

I'm not trying to be difficult just to understand.

If you are generally healthy without a history of succumbing to flu or colds, if you rarely get sick when those around you do, are you more likely to get sick from the Swine flu or more likely NOT to get sick?

I can understand telling babies and older people to get a vaccine but most people do not die from flu. So why is this being called a pandemic?

Oh and one more thing maybe Linda can explain.

The people around me who have gotten the vaccine have gotten a cold the next day. Also my sister who vaccinates amoxicillins up the wazoo has a child that is perpetually sick. She's 4 years old and has been sick about once or twice a month for the last year or so. She's also developed severe nut allergies.

When she was born her parent's doctors told them that they should avoid giving her nut products because she could develope allergies. So they didn't. NOW doctors are saying avoiding nuts can actually cause allergies.

I don't understand all this effort. My kids have no allergies and are never sick and I'm the laziest parent on the face of the earth when it comes to these things.

Is their kid sick from bacteria, viruses or allergies? If it is amoxicillin (which is NOT a vaccine), then it was bacterial. I have allergies, and I'm sick from rhinoviruses all the time, and there are no vaccines for those, nor are there any other meds, and antiobiotics like amoxicillin won't do a darn thing either. I just suffer and blow my nose, and use saline to help with the stuffiness.

Kids are always perpetually sick until a certain age until they get most non-preventable diseases anyways, and having allergies on top of that makes things even worse. So, using this kid as a poster child this way is really not a good example.