Thoughtful responses to this H1N1 poster:

[truethat]

Then tell us who is going to get sick and die from it and we'll just tell them to get vaccinated.

Linda

I think that is my question to you. If I am someone who is rarely sick and who doesn't seem to catch what other people have, am I more likely to get sicker from this disease?

That's what the panic seems to be suggesting. That "no one is safe" and that it's a deadly disease.

I'm not understanding why this particular disease is more risky than a regular flu. Regular flu kills old people and babies as well. But most people don't die from the flu. Why are regular healthy average people being encouraged to get a vaccine rather than allowing their body to fight the illness on its own.

Again I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse. If we are talking polio the side effect could be crippling but regular flu? Don't you simply recover anyway if that's how your body deals with these things?

What makes this especially dangerous?

 

[Capsid]

Then tell us who is going to get sick and die from it and we'll just tell them to get vaccinated.

Linda

Nice answer!

 

[falln_angel]

With regard to the poster, the H1N1 figures given are so far. Clearly we are supposed to extrapolate these figures into the future, which probably works fine for highway deaths, but not so much for a virus. Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Case in point: The Public Health Agency of Canada reported the first death caused by H1N1 on May 8. By October 15, around the time the graphic was created if we're to assume the data is accurate, that number had reached 80. In the month since then it has more than doubled. As of their last report, on November 12, the number of deaths attributed to H1N1 in Canada is 161, with more than half of those new deaths occurring after Nov. 5, and it's pretty safe to assume that the number has increased since then. (CBC reported 198 in an article this morning.) I admit that the numbers are still pretty low, but they're significant - especially if you look at years of life lost rather than just number of lives lost.

That said, the amount of panic on both sides of this issue seems a bit ludicrous to me. So far the percentage of our population that has died because of H1N1 is .000006%, hardly worth the panic some people are working themselves into, lining up for days when they're not on the priority lists, etc. On the other hand, it's not like the WHO and local government agencies are taking extreme measures. It's being strongly suggested that we all go get a flu shot. That's it! And despite fears from the anti-vax side that the government is trying to poison us (by using thimerosal and squalene - oh the horror!), and despite the estimates that 20-25% of Canadians have already received the H1N1 vaccine, there doesn't seem to be an epidemic of neurological complications up here.

At the end of the day, if there's something we can do to help prevent even a relatively small number of unnecessary deaths I think we should do it. And frankly, if I had to choose between government that spends $1.5 billion on what could have been a serious health issue or one that waits until we're in the middle of a crisis before taking action, I'll take the first option every time.

 

[truethat]

Is their kid sick from bacteria, viruses or allergies? If it is amoxicillin (which is NOT a vaccine), then it was bacterial. I have allergies, and I'm sick from rhinoviruses all the time, and there are no vaccines for those, nor are there any other meds, and antiobiotics like amoxicillin won't do a darn thing either. I just suffer and blow my nose, and use saline to help with the stuffiness.

Kids are always perpetually sick until a certain age until they get most non-preventable diseases anyways, and having allergies on top of that makes things even worse. So, using this kid as a poster child this way is really not a good example.

I'm not using anyone as a poster child. I'm simply saying that Doctors will often prescribe amoxicillin instead of just letting the child fight the infection because the parents want a quick fix.

However if you don't use the entire dosage of amoxicillin you can actually create health problems for your child. The reason I stopped using it was because the children spit out half of it so I couldn't be sure that they had gotten the proper dosage. It just seems like setting them up to get sick.

I'm not exaggerating when I say my children are never sick. Once in a blue moon is too often. They are never sick. It just seems that parents who are constantly dragging the kids down to the doctors office have kids that are sick all the time, going through antibiotic after antibiotic.

Am I wrong in thinking your body should be able to fight off a bacterial infection in it's design? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. I've seen many parents act as though it is impossible for a child to fight off an infection of this nature. I don't think that's true, or have I got it wrong?

 

[Capsid]

Am I wrong in thinking your body should be able to fight off a bacterial infection in it's design? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. I've seen many parents act as though it is impossible for a child to fight off an infection of this nature. I don't think that's true, or have I got it wrong?

The immune system can fight off any infection in theory but the problem is that the pathogens can get round this. Bacterial meningitis for instance can infect the brain and kill you, no matter how good your immune system is.

 

[fls]

Oh and one more thing maybe Linda can explain.

The people around me who have gotten the vaccine have gotten a cold the next day.

This will be a combination of factors - seasonal opportunities for exposure plus confirmation and attribution bias (you probably did not make an effort to record the incidence of colds in those who did not receive the vaccine and probably any respiratory symptoms were taken as an example of a "cold").

Also my sister who vaccinates amoxicillins

I haven't the foggiest idea what that is supposed to mean.

up the wazoo has a child that is perpetually sick. She's 4 years old and has been sick about once or twice a month for the last year or so. She's also developed severe nut allergies.

When she was born her parent's doctors told them that they should avoid giving her nut products because she could develope allergies. So they didn't. NOW doctors are saying avoiding nuts can actually cause allergies.

I don't understand all this effort. My kids have no allergies and are never sick and I'm the laziest parent on the face of the earth when it comes to these things.

There is variation in health status between individuals based upon a variety of extrinsic and instrinsic factors.

Linda

 

[truethat]

Ok but that's my question. This isn't bacterial menigitis, or polio, it's a flu? Like I said am I minimalizing the damage that this can do to the average person? The people I know who have caught it were basically home for a week with fever feeling like crap and then they got better???

I can understand suggesting that "at risk people" get the vaccine, like babies or people prone to bronchial infections or older folks but why is this being presented like it is a deadly disease ala "OUTBREAK!"

 

[Segnosaur]

Again I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse. If we are talking polio the side effect could be crippling but regular flu? Don't you simply recover anyway if that's how your body deals with these things?

What makes this especially dangerous?

This particular flu isn't especially dangerous. The problem is, even if this flu is on par with other types if influenza, influenza still affects between 5 and 20% of the population a year, and kills thousands (including many otherwise healthy people.) The problem isn't that people are "playing up" the risks of H1N1, the problem is that too many people (including you, it seems) are ignoring the risks of other types of flu.

Kind of like if we singled out and beat 10% of the population with a sledgehammer, year after year. This year, we changed to a crowbar for our beating purposes. Instead of concentrating on the fact that the crowbar isn't necessarily any more dangerous than the sledgehammer, we should be trying to stop all the beatings (from both sledgehammer and crowbar.)

 

[fls]

Why are regular healthy average people being encouraged to get a vaccine rather than allowing their body to fight the illness on its own.

Because many (most, I think - Skeptigirl will know) of the deaths have been in regular healthy average people.

Linda

 

[truethat]

Oh I see, so the reason to get the vaccine myself would be to avoid being like Typhoid Mary? Is that really the issue? If I don't get the vaccine and my kids don't then we become carriers that can infect others who would be at risk for fatality? But if they are getting the vaccine aren't they protected? Or does this flu mutate within my body and then turn into a more deadly version or something?

Again thanks for the answers I'm not trying to be stupid here! Just trying to understand why every year people are screaming about the "superflu" that never seems to arrive. For years it's been mad cow, chicken flu, the flu from China, the flu from Mexico etc and the answer seems to be "Well this year isn't really the problem, NEXT year it will be a pandemic" then people get sick and get better.

Try explaining it to me in simple terms.

 

[Capsid]

Ok but that's my question. This isn't bacterial menigitis, or polio, it's a flu? Like I said am I minimalizing the damage that this can do to the average person? The people I know who have caught it were basically home for a week with fever feeling like crap and then they got better???

I can understand suggesting that "at risk people" get the vaccine, like babies or people prone to bronchial infections or older folks but why is this being presented like it is a deadly disease ala "OUTBREAK!"

Pandemic influenza strains can cause a cytokine storm where the the immune system of the fit and healthy can over react to the virus. Human to human transmission may mutate pandemic H1N1 into something more deadly, it's best not to take the risk and contain it by vaccination.

 

[fls]

Again thanks for the answers I'm not trying to be stupid here! Just trying to understand why every year people are screaming about the "superflu" that never seems to arrive. For years it's been mad cow, chicken flu, the flu from China, the flu from Mexico etc and the answer seems to be "Well this year isn't really the problem, NEXT year it will be a pandemic" then people get sick and get better.

Try explaining it to me in simple terms.

Oh that. I thought you were looking for health information. How it goes is that the media is interested in creating and maintaining a market for "news". One way to increase the consumption of news is to create a perceived need for that information by generating fear and anxiety.

Linda

 

[Segnosaur]

Oh I see, so the reason to get the vaccine myself would be to avoid being like Typhoid Mary? Is that really the issue? If I don't get the vaccine and my kids don't then we become carriers that can infect others who would be at risk for fatality? But if they are getting the vaccine aren't they protected?

First of all, not everyone can actually get the vaccine. I believe those with severe alergies to eggs can't get the influenza vaccine for example.

Secondly, not everyone who gets the vaccine is protected. It usually takes a few weeks for the body to build up an immunity (during which time they may be vulnerable to infection from others.) Plus, there is a small minority of people who, for some reason, don't actually build an immunity when vaccinated. (Its rare, but it happens.)

So, if you get vaccinated you will help prevent the spread of influenza to those 2 groups of people.

 

[truethat]

Ok so don't punch me but I have to ask. Is it not possible to over medicate the body to the point that it over reacts to illness instead of simply dealing with infections in a natural way?

I do understand that my experiences are not typical and that they are not empiricle, but at the same time I do subscribe to the idea that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Segnosaur]

Ok but that's my question. This isn't bacterial menigitis, or polio, it's a flu? Like I said am I minimalizing the damage that this can do to the average person? The people I know who have caught it were basically home for a week with fever feeling like crap and then they got better???

Just out of curiosity, why exactly are you downplaying something that makes you "feel like crap"?

Even if nobody you know was hospitalized or died, most people I know would rather not "feel like crap" for a week. Are all your friends masochists who like to suffer?

Not only that, consider the costs: While those people were at home sick, how much productivity did they loose at work?

I can understand suggesting that "at risk people" get the vaccine, like babies or people prone to bronchial infections or older folks but why is this being presented like it is a deadly disease ala "OUTBREAK!"

Even if your chances of dying from influenza (or related complications) are low, they are still not zero. Why run the risk of catching some disease you can die from when you can eliminate (or at least cut down) the risk with a simple needle?

 

[Segnosaur]

Ok so don't punch me but I have to ask. Is it not possible to over medicate the body to the point that it over reacts to illness instead of simply dealing with infections in a natural way?

It all depends on what you define as a "medication".

A vaccine is not like an antibiotic or vitamin or some health suppliment. The vaccines basically work with your immune system. From the point of view of your immune system, it is handling the infection "in a natural way". Your body just doesn't realize that its getting the antigen (in this case a virus) from the vaccine or from a real (and possibly dangerous) infection. However, your body handles it both in pretty much the same fashion.... by creating antibodies that help fight the infection and remembering what the virus looks like when it encounters a similar infection.

 

[Capsid]

Ok so don't punch me but I have to ask. Is it not possible to over medicate the body to the point that it over reacts to illness instead of simply dealing with infections in a natural way?

I do understand that my experiences are not typical and that they are not empiricle, but at the same time I do subscribe to the idea that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There was a trial in the UK in which a medication (an antibody) was given to volunteers and it caused an uncontrolled stimulation of their immune system. So it is possible to over medicate but a vaccine would never elicit that type of response.

The problem with vaccines is that they are given to healthy people and the view that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is understandable. The trouble is that pathogens such as bacteria and viruses can be very nasty even if you are in good health since it can take longer to mount the immune response (several days) than it takes the virus/bacteria to do harm.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

And because of this again:

This novel H1N1 pandemic strain is NEW to us, so you will have some kind of symptoms if exposed, and you never know if you can fight it off better due to the kinds of receptors you have, etc. This pandemic strain is deadly since it settles deeper in the lungs, and people under 65 have never been exposed to any strain like it before. It is also more severe for younger folks than the regular yearly flu has been because of the way it gets into the lungs.

Not everyone is the same, and not everyone has the exact same immune system, and not every flu bug (yearly or otherwise) is the same since this bug mutates like crazy. You might get a bug that is really deadly for your type of physiology, you just never know. Or, if you get a seondary infection like pneumonia once your immune system is down with the flu. Pneumonia is the real killer in the usual flu seasons. But this bug is killing kids and younger adults without pneumonia to finish them off.


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/n...ory_90673.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0910083915.htm

The pandemic influenza virus's ability to stick to the additional receptors may explain why the virus replicates and spreads between cells more quickly: if a flu virus can bind to more than one type of receptor, it can attach itself to a larger area of the respiratory tract, infecting more cells and causing a more serious infection.
...Our new research shows how the virus does this - by attaching to receptors mostly found on cells deep in the lungs. This is something seasonal flu cannot do."

Did you know that viruses invade our cells, get inside them where the immune system can't get at them? Then they hijack our dna and turn our cells into virus making factories? Our immune system does have ways to thwart this process once you are infected, but vaccines prevent this process from getting way too far.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Ok so don't punch me but I have to ask. Is it not possible to over medicate the body to the point that it over reacts to illness instead of simply dealing with infections in a natural way?

I do understand that my experiences are not typical and that they are not empiricle, but at the same time I do subscribe to the idea that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Because we are dealing with a virus, and because vaccines are not "medication".

Vaccines cause the exact same immune response that the virus does, so your resulting immunity against the harmful virus is "natural" if you should come across it after vaccination.

The vaccine then is excreted/broken down/etc. and you have no "medication" to worry about in this case.

You're mixing this up with bacteria and antibiotics. Bacteria eat you, while viruses get inside your cells and kidnap your dna. Bacteria have to be fought with antibiotics, or not, depending on how severe the infection is. Most people don't need antibiotics and should try to fight it off first without running to the doctor every time. Most ear infections resolve on their own, etc.

I only go see the doc if my bacterial infection has not started to clear up in a week, and then I make sure I take ALL the medication as directed. If you have a virus, then there's no point in seeing the doc for anything since you can't take antibiotics for it. With the flu, there's some antivirals available, and these are recommended if you start experience shortness of breath, etc.

If you like, I can try to find something that helps to let you know if the infection is caused by a virus, or caused by a bacterium.

Vaccines are the best prevention of a viral infection, they are not a "medication", and they aren't really used as a "treatment" unless you think you need to get a rabies or tetanus shot.

 

[Rocko]

Ok but that's my question. This isn't bacterial menigitis, or polio, it's a flu? Like I said am I minimalizing the damage that this can do to the average person?

The risks of getting the jab are (enormously) smaller than those of contracting H1N1 flu. In other words, you're exposing yourself to a smaller risk of injury by having the vaccine than not. It's a simple risk/benefit equation. And that's before looking at the benefits of stopping you passing it on to people with less robust immune systems than you and your family.

When driving a car, there's a chance you'll crash off a bridge, find yourself tied in by the seatbelt you were wearing and drown as a result. There's also a (greater) chance you'll be in a crash and the seatbelt will save your life.

Do you wear a seatbelt?