Thoughtful responses to this H1N1 poster:

[Eos of the Eons]

Well, the infection caused an inflammation of his heart. While that is a rare complication, it is deadly. We can't know what this flu virus will do to us. As I have mentioned before, it is a new strain and therefore contagious to everyone under 65 (and still deadly to some over 65).

Another reason they are suggesting people get vaccinated this year is because we knew this flu bug was circulating out of Mexico when they made the vaccine, making it over 90% effective. It is an exact match. The more people who get vaccinated, the less people it will infect, and the less of a chance it will mutate to come around again next year. We wouldn't have to deal with it year after year the way we do with the seasonal flu (which is incubating in the usual sources at the moment to come back and bite us in 2010, 2011, etc.).


The final reason is that it is killing younger people more than the yearly flu does. This is a worse flu for your family than usual, for all the reasons I already posted previously.


If you don't get the vaccine, that is fine. But please keep all of this in mind, and I'm so happy you were able to learn something from this. Just knowing the difference between viruses and bacteria will help you make future decisions for you and your family.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

You do not have a disease injected into your body when you have a flu vaccination. The virus is dead. There is an attenuated vaccine, but that is administed via a nasal spray.

Apart from that, viruses and bacteria are getting into your body all the time. When you were young you got sick. Now that you're immune system has developed, you remain healthy because your body destroys the pathogens before they have a chance to cause disease.

Exactly. You won't be injecting the disease, it's antigens that the body will build an immunity based on. The disease is not injected, doesn't stick around, and isn't the issue when it comes to vaccination. What will stick around instead is an immunity for when the disease is trying to infect you.

 

[fls]

I don't see it being basic and obvious because I've been told for years that my kids and family ought to get this or that vaccine. It has never made a whit of difference in our lives that we don't get them.

How do you know? One of the reasons for vaccination programs is to limit the spread of the disease and the opportunities for mutation. If the virus encounters a substantial number people who are no longer susceptible to it (either through vaccination or immunity from prior infection), it will hit a dead end and won't be able to propagate. You may have contributed to this propagation if your sub-clinical illness allowed the virus to be spread to others who were susceptible. Or you may have avoided exposure because the pathway from an infected person to you was interrupted by people who were immune.

I should point out that my use of seatbelts and bike helmets has never made a whit of difference in my life, or in the life of my kids. Can we assume that you forego those as well?

I rarely take my kids to the doctors and when I do they get a clean bill of health. So to me, despite what is being written and printed it doesn't ring true in my personal experience.

Yes, it is difficult to overcome the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.

For example skeptigirl's post about the boy who dropped dead of a heart attack. I presume that you would consider it unscientific for a woo to suggest a "curse" killed him and would insist on an autopsy before diagnosing the cause of death.

How do you think they determined the cause of death? With a pendulum?

I struggle to comprehend why people insist that everyone needs to get the vaccine. This fails to take into consideration that going down to a location to get the vaccine is placing you near people that most likely know someone who caught it. Additionally I'm not very convinced that injecting a disease into my body is the way to go about this.

You seem to have almost no understanding of biology (this isn't meant to be a criticism, we all have different interests). Doesn't it worry you that you are allowing somewhat who is ignorant of even the basics of medicine to make medical decisions for you and your children?

The only moral question here is the Typhoid Mary question which to me would be the only reason I would get the vaccine.

That's a new one. I usually make appeals to selfishness when I encounter people who can't stand the idea of altruism rather than the other way round.

Linda

 

[Kuko 4000]

Question: How does the virus mutate in practise?

My understanding is that this happens when a person is already infected by a virus and then gets infected by a different one, this will allow the virus to mutate and spread as a new mixture of those two, is this anywhere near correct? Also, what are the limits to how it can mutate, are there a certain number of "virus pieces" that can "change" places with each other or how does this happen?

Another question: Is the current "Swine flu" circulating in the poorer parts of Africa and Asia, and how are they coping with it, I haven't heard much from that direction?

Another thing that's been on my mind lately, the Finnish equivalent of CDC does not recommend normal seasonal influenza vaccines for anyone else than the risk groups. I've understood that the CDC recommends everyone to get the seasonal influenza vaccine every year, is this correct?

Personally I have never taken an influenza vaccine, I've never feared it's safety, but I've always thought that I can handle a flu or two in year, and so far I've been ok. After reading more and more about the impact of the seasonal influenza to the society as a whole I'm starting to change my mind. To me it seems like a no-brainer to take the normal seasonal influenza vaccine to help and build the herd immunity. Previously I have not thought enough about the possibility that I could SO easily spread the virus around to people who are in the risk group. The thing is that I could suffer very mild symptoms myself, but still spread a potentially deadly virus to someone else simply by touching things in the store downstairs, etc.

After this reflection, I'm starting to wonder why the "Finnish CDC" doesn't educate the public more visibly on the idea of herd immunity. Hmmm...I wonder if I'm missing something here?

 

[temporalillusion]

Doesn't it worry you that you are allowing somewhat who is ignorant of even the basics of medicine to make medical decisions for you and your children?

This.

I'm tired of arguing with parents who seem to forget that with parental rights come parental obligations... the right to choose how to raise and protect kids comes with the obligation of making the best choices.

And too many parents think that 5 minutes of research on the interwebs to determine that the H1N1 vaccine is teh evil fills that obligation.

Ok so don't punch me but I have to ask. Is it not possible to over medicate the body to the point that it over reacts to illness instead of simply dealing with infections in a natural way?

I know it's been covered already, but to answer the idea directly, I think I've read it's been estimated that the theoretical limit to the # of vaccines for the average person to "handle" is in the order of 100,000. The guy who said that also helped invent one vaccine and is very vocal in the media for vaccines but I can't remember his name. I thought it was interesting.

 

[Capsid]

Question: How does the virus mutate in practise?

My understanding is that this happens when a person is already infected by a virus and then gets infected by a different one, this will allow the virus to mutate and spread as a new mixture of those two, is this anywhere near correct? Also, what are the limits to how it can mutate, are there a certain number of "virus pieces" that can "change" places with each other or how does this happen?

Influenza virus as with all viruses, mutates when it replicates. This is called antigenic drift. But it can also combine its genes with other viruses. So for pandemic H1N1, the HA and N genes of human, bird and swine viruses have recombined in the pig host to produce this one. This is called antigenic shift. As you can see the possible combinations are very large and why there is a new vaccine each year.

In the UK the vaccine is given free to at risk groups but it is available for about £12 and administered in dispensing chemists.

 

[Capsid]

This.

I'm tired of arguing with parents who seem to forget that with parental rights come parental obligations... the right to choose how to raise and protect kids comes with the obligation of making the best choices.

And too many parents think that 5 minutes of research on the interwebs to determine that the H1N1 vaccine is teh evil fills that obligation.



I know it's been covered already, but to answer the idea directly, I think I've read it's been estimated that the theoretical limit to the # of vaccines for the average person to "handle" is in the order of 100,000. The guy who said that also helped invent one vaccine and is very vocal in the media for vaccines but I can't remember his name. I thought it was interesting.

Actually the theroretical limit for the number of antigens a human can handle is ~10^12. Well that's the number of immunogloulin gene shufflings that are possible.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Influenza virus as with all viruses, mutates when it replicates. This is called antigenic drift. But it can also combine its genes with other viruses. So for pandemic H1N1, the HA and N genes of human, bird and swine viruses have recombined in the pig host to produce this one. This is called antigenic shift. As you can see the possible combinations are very large and why there is a new vaccine each year.

In the UK the vaccine is given free to at risk groups but it is available for about £12 and administered in dispensing chemists.

Sainsbury's is offering the seasonal flu vaccine for £8 this year.

Though if 2009H1N1 really has replaced the seasonal flu this year that may not offer value for money...

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Actually the theroretical limit for the number of antigens a human can handle is ~10^12. Well that's the number of immunogloulin gene shufflings that are possible.

And don't you just know some geek in a biological weapons research laboratory is working as we speak on antigen 10^12 + 1?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Okay, Now I'm wondering what that would look like.

 

[Travis]

And don't you just know some geek in a biological weapons research laboratory is working as we speak on antigen 10^12 + 1?

Okay, Now I'm wondering what that would look like.

1000000000001

 

[Eos of the Eons]

no no no no no... You know I wanna see that many antigens

 

[Toke]

I have been posting on prisonplanet, there is not much faith in vaccines compared to garlic.
Apparently the almost eradication of polio is unrelated to vaccines.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Just fair warning, Prison Planet will rot your brain.

I'd like to know what they figured happened to smallpox, seeing as chicken pox and the flu are still around even though we have so much sanitation.

 

[Ocelot]

Well we don't often sanitize chickens but I'm regularly washing my smalls./

 

[Toke]

Just fair warning, Prison Planet will rot your brain.

Yes, my original idea of out-lunacying the regulars for the fun of it look more and more impossible.

I'd like to know what they figured happened to smallpox, seeing as chicken pox and the flu are still around even though we have so much sanitation.

I am sure there is a perfectly irrational answer to that.

 

[truethat]

How do you know? One of the reasons for vaccination programs is to limit the spread of the disease and the opportunities for mutation. If the virus encounters a substantial number people who are no longer susceptible to it (either through vaccination or immunity from prior infection), it will hit a dead end and won't be able to propagate. You may have contributed to this propagation if your sub-clinical illness allowed the virus to be spread to others who were susceptible. Or you may have avoided exposure because the pathway from an infected person to you was interrupted by people who were immune.

I should point out that my use of seatbelts and bike helmets has never made a whit of difference in my life, or in the life of my kids. Can we assume that you forego those as well?



Yes, it is difficult to overcome the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.



How do you think they determined the cause of death? With a pendulum?



You seem to have almost no understanding of biology (this isn't meant to be a criticism, we all have different interests). Doesn't it worry you that you are allowing somewhat who is ignorant of even the basics of medicine to make medical decisions for you and your children?



That's a new one. I usually make appeals to selfishness when I encounter people who can't stand the idea of altruism rather than the other way round.

Linda

Thanks for the explanations. I don't understand biology at all. At the same time I don't always wear a seat belt or bike helmet. So I'm not a good example there. However I would never talk on the phone and drive because I wouldn't want to deal with someone being hurt because of my negligence.

The only appeal to reason here to me is the one you are mentioning. I don't consider it "altruistic" to get a vaccine that would prevent someone who is highly succeptible from contracting a fatal illness. I consider it basic human responsibility to our fellow man.

The same way I consider it wrong to send peanut butter sandwhiches to school when kids have fatal nut allergies.

I'm going to get the vaccine for this reason alone.

That's for helping me sort it out.

 

[Travis]

I have been posting on prisonplanet, there is not much faith in vaccines compared to garlic.
Apparently the almost eradication of polio is unrelated to vaccines.

Ask them to go live in a crowded building with polio sufferers and see if their "super immune systems fortified with garlic" will protect them. I suspect they will turn that opportunity down.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

I'm going to get the vaccine for this reason alone.

That's for helping me sort it out.

I am ecstatic to hear someone's mind about vaccines was changed in a discussion on the JREF forum.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Yay for herd immunity, or at least contributions to it!