Status
Not open for further replies.
Got rid of???

Anyway, maybe this information could explain why he didn't release his slaves:

Thomas Jefferson did not free his own slaves for several reasons, we can surmise. First "freeing" slaves was not an easy task. The owner had to put up a bond to pay for any transgressions the slave commited on society while free. Also, slaves being considered property, they were subject to debt and property laws. If a owner of slaves was in massive debt, as was Thomas Jefferson to the tune of $100,000.00, freeing them was impossible. In fact once Jefferson died his creditors seized the slaves along with Monticello and sold them at auction. Thomas Jefferson also knew that his own fellow Viginians were not ready nor willing to support emancipation. Jefferson's many attempts at emancipating slaves in the state failed. Also he knew that it would not be humane to free a people into a society that did not want them, and who had their habits nurtured in slavery. Jefferson was a progressive. Many of his fellow Virginians felt he was a dangerous radical on slavery. Being progressive he knew that time and patience would eventually destroy the institution. It is amazing how modern Americans want simple solutions to complex social problems, i.e: slavery in the 18th century.

From the website: CONVERSATIONS ON JEFFERSON AND JEFFERSONIAN POLITICS

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/jeffersonians/jpfor005.htm
So he kept his slaves to protect them and so he could pay off debts?

DOC, I do not think Jefferson was a bad man. He did much good protecting government from religious encroachment. But he was a slave owner and it's rather difficult to spin that in a good light. He was simply a product of the immorality of the time.

All we can do as moral individuals is LEARN from the mistakes of the past and not repeat them.
 
Got rid of???

Anyway, maybe this information could explain why he didn't release his slaves:

Thomas Jefferson did not free his own slaves for several reasons, we can surmise. First "freeing" slaves was not an easy task. The owner had to put up a bond to pay for any transgressions the slave commited on society while free. Also, slaves being considered property, they were subject to debt and property laws. If a owner of slaves was in massive debt, as was Thomas Jefferson to the tune of $100,000.00, freeing them was impossible. In fact once Jefferson died his creditors seized the slaves along with Monticello and sold them at auction. Thomas Jefferson also knew that his own fellow Viginians were not ready nor willing to support emancipation. Jefferson's many attempts at emancipating slaves in the state failed. Also he knew that it would not be humane to free a people into a society that did not want them, and who had their habits nurtured in slavery. Jefferson was a progressive. Many of his fellow Virginians felt he was a dangerous radical on slavery. Being progressive he knew that time and patience would eventually destroy the institution. It is amazing how modern Americans want simple solutions to complex social problems, i.e: slavery in the 18th century.

From the website: CONVERSATIONS ON JEFFERSON AND JEFFERSONIAN POLITICS

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/jeffersonians/jpfor005.htm


Wow. I did not know all that. I guess the next step is to research those claims and see if they are true or not. Surely there most be a more reliable source that a Geocities account.
 
A man might choose to honor a slave's "no", but that's not really relevant. A man with a drawn gun might also choose to honor a woman's "no". In each case, though, that's more a function of his situational freedom than of hers. Perhaps more accurately, her ability to give unconstrained consent is a function of (among other things) her perceived freedom to withhold it.
I don't see the two scenarios as equivalent, and I'll tell you why.

A man with a drawn gun is presumably not asking for consent. There's a reason he's drawn the gun. Unless it's for self defense ("Okay, now that I've persuaded you not to kill me, do you want to get it on?"), it's probably to compel consent. The implicit choice is, submit or die.

If men were walking around all the time with drawn guns, it might be a more equivalent situation. The imbalance of power is still a given, but unless people are being shot to death over every disagreement, the imminent threat of death is much smaller than in the scene you set. If a soldier in Vietnam had relations with one of the locals, it wasn't automatically presumed to be rape.

A slightly different angle on the question arises from the fact that slave status entailed general legal incapacity. In many jurisdictions nowadays, a sexual act is deemed to be committed without someone's consent where the victim lacks the legal capacity to give consent even if she in fact acquiesces to the sexual act.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding that a slave cannot give consent? All civilized countries in the world have laws against statutory rape because all reasonable people agree that a child is not capable of giving consent to a sexual union that is as unequal as an adult-child relationship. Similarly, slaves cannot give consent because the relationship is inherently unequal.
"Inherently unequal" does not constitute statutory rape, and I don't think slaveowner-slave sex would be in the statutory rape category any more than consensual rich man-poor girl or boss-secretary or president-intern sex.

The statutory rape category has a "legal consent" provision because some people lack the mental capacity to perceive the consequences to the degree required for informed consent. A child is protected for this reason. I don't know of any specific cases, but it may be that a person with diminished mental capacity may be similarly protected.

Even if an adult slave did not have legal standing to refuse sex, if consent was given, I don't think the act would be considered rape, statutory or otherwise.

You're really trying to have it both ways here -- defining the slave as a modern person for the purpose of establishing rape (sex without consent), and then as an 18th-century non-person for the purpose of being incapable of giving consent. If she was a modern person, and consent was given, it wasn't rape. If she was 18th-century property, consent would not be possible, and rape would not be possible, any more than a man could rape a cantaloupe.

I'd prefer to regard her as a person under conditions which might have exerted influence, but did not compel consent. Under those circumstances, if consent was not given, it was simply rape. If the act was consensual, even if influenced by circumstances and an inherent power imbalance, I'd be reluctant to call it rape.
 
Wow. I did not know all that. I guess the next step is to research those claims and see if they are true or not. Surely there most be a more reliable source that a Geocities account.
I don't really even see the reason to bother with that. Let's pretend it's 100% factual.

Does that change the fact that he owned other human beings and had them work on his land for his income? This is just a strange defense for DOC to do. I mean, it would be like him defending someone's decision to have an abortion.
 
Wow. I did not know all that. I guess the next step is to research those claims and see if they are true or not. Surely there most be a more reliable source that a Geocities account.
It's largely true. Jefferson's massive debts meant that freeing his slaves would have been financially ruinous. He couldn't even make his plantation profitable with slave labor; being required to pay fair wages for the same work would have been impossible. His creditors didn't press him as hard as they could have while he was alive, because of his reputation, but his heirs were saddled with a heavy burden; selling Monticello, his slaves, and personal effects didn't begin to cover the debts he left when he died.

The second reason is that he regarded slaves for the most part as children, who would be incapable of taking care of themselves if they were simply freed into a society which didn't want them after a lifetime of having their basic needs provided by a slaveowner. He entertained notions of returning all the slaves to Africa, but after the idealism of his youth had faded, most of his platitudes about freeing slaves were simply lip service. He did free in his will a handful of educated slaves (including the two children of Sally Hemings who were still on the plantation), but most of them were simply sold to the highest bidder, even when that meant children were taken from their parents, possibly never to see each other again.
 
Last edited:
You're really trying to have it both ways here -- defining the slave as a modern person for the purpose of establishing rape (sex without consent), and then as an 18th-century non-person for the purpose of being incapable of giving consent. If she was a modern person, and consent was given, it wasn't rape. If she was 18th-century property, consent would not be possible, and rape would not be possible, any more than a man could rape a cantaloupe.

I'd prefer to regard her as a person under conditions which might have exerted influence, but did not compel consent. Under those circumstances, if consent was not given, it was simply rape. If the act was consensual, even if influenced by circumstances and an inherent power imbalance, I'd be reluctant to call it rape.

Even if I accept that it was not rape, I will still maintain that a slave owner who has sex with slaves is inherently unqualified to judge whether or not Jesus's teachings can be described as the most beautiful or precious morsel of ethics ever.
 
Even if I accept that it was not rape, I will still maintain that a slave owner who has sex with slaves is inherently unqualified to judge whether or not Jesus's teachings can be described as the most beautiful or precious morsel of ethics ever.
I think that was just the politician in him talking anyway. He wanted people to like him, and being a deist non-Christian was about as popular in his day as being an atheist is today. He was kind of playing the same "Hate the sin, not the sinner" game that we see today, with his "hate the institution, not the teachings" position. Plus, "love your neighbor as yourself" really is a good rule of thumb.
 
Even if I accept that it was not rape, I will still maintain that a slave owner who has sex with slaves is inherently unqualified to judge whether or not Jesus's teachings can be described as the most beautiful or precious morsel of ethics ever.

Not necessarily. If Jefferson honestly believed that the slaves he inherited were better off with him than if he released them into a hostile and uncertain world that would be very Christian behavior to keep them. I believe it was Jefferson who said that slavery was like holding a wolf by the ears. In other words what happens when you let go of the ears.
 
Last edited:
Not necessarily. If Jefferson honestly believed that the slaves he inherited were better off with him than if he released them into a hostile and uncertain world that would be very Christian behavior to keep them. I believe it was Jefferson who said that slavery was like holding a wolf by the ears. In other words what happens when you let go of the ears.
Then for people in extreme poverty and sickness, abortion is the christian thing to do. You don't subject the unborn baby to the torment of a horrible life and you send it straight to heaven. It's win/win.
 
Then for people in extreme poverty and sickness, abortion is the christian thing to do. You don't subject the unborn baby to the torment of a horrible life and you send it straight to heaven. It's win/win.

Or put him/her up for adoption where its a win/win/win situation.
 
Or put him/her up for adoption where its a win/win/win situation.
Hardly certain.

Poor pregnant mother: Must undergo the rigors of childbirth as opposed to the lesser risk of abortion.

Poor child: Must risk not being adopted or being adopted by a non-loving family or being placed into a bad foster care situation.

Poor God: Must risk the child growing up to decide Jesus isn't his personal savior and therefore is forced (forced!) to condemn that child to everlasting torment in the burning fires of hell.

As a page-turner, your scenario is best. As a product of your most recent attempt at logic, abortion is best.
 
And I'm with the side who says that it cannot be substantiated that slaves are better off with Jefferson having existed as opposed to not having existed.

Jefferson had little or nothing to do with writing the Constitution; he did nothing as President to better the lot of slaves; and he did nothing ever to bring about the eventual freedom of slaves.

One could more legitimately argue that slaves would have been better off without Jefferson. His efforts contributed to the split from England, a country that passed the Emancipation Act in 1833 which resulted in abolishment of slavery in 1840, a full 23 years before Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.
 
As a page-turner, your scenario is best. As a product of your most recent attempt at logic, abortion is best.
This is a perfect summary of my entire point. Thank you, Garrette.

DOC, I actually am against abortion(although not in all settings). I think it is an unsavory solution for multiple (non-religious) reasons, which I will not go into here.

I was simply highlighting the fact you have been using moral relativism to excuse the actions of Jefferson, because he was a prisoner of his time. You've also claimed that Jesus was against slavery, but was a prisoner of his time.

I would agree with these statements, but it simply demonstrates that, even god isn't morally absolute. If god isn't a moral absolute, why do we need god for morality? In this thread, you have helped prove that not only is religion not needed for morality, it can be a hinderance towards it. As such, your previous claim of the likely results of athiestic society resulting in moral attrocities is simply unfounded and based upon bigotry.
 
As I see it, given all the evidence we have at this time there is no way Jefferson could be convicted of criminal rape. I find it ironic that some atheists who are always talking about evidence are so ready to convict a man of the serious charge of rape when the beyond a reasonable doubt evidence is not there.

And if the following info brought in by bokonan is true then Jefferson probably in my opinion wouldn't even be convicted in a civil case.

"We have evidence, from Sally Hemings' own children, that her relationship with Jefferson was consensual. There is additional evidence that she had admiration for Jefferson -- she reportedly stayed in Charlottesville rather than moving to Ohio with her sons after being freed by Jefferson's daughter, and visited Jefferson's grave regularly until her death."


Regardless of the question of rape, it is surprising that you do not seem to have a problem with adultery and out-of-wedlock sex and childbirth. It would do your credibility a world of good if you would just admit that Jefferson was not the epitomy of moral behavior.
 
And I'm with the side who says that it cannot be substantiated that slaves are better off with Jefferson having existed as opposed to not having existed.

Jefferson had little or nothing to do with writing the Constitution; he did nothing as President to better the lot of slaves; and he did nothing ever to bring about the eventual freedom of slaves.

One could more legitimately argue that slaves would have been better off without Jefferson. His efforts contributed to the split from England, a country that passed the Emancipation Act in 1833 which resulted in abolishment of slavery in 1840, a full 23 years before Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.

There are forceful counterarguments, however. Some of them are presented in this paper by David Post, professor of law at Temple University, who concludes that "few people in human history did more, in the sum total of their lifetimes, to dismantle the institution of slavery than Jefferson." And of course, the inspiration bequeathed by Jefferson to the anti-slavery movement far outlived the man himself.

I've suspected for many years, in fact, that Jefferson deserves partial authorship credit for the Thirteenth Amendment, since noticing back in law school that the text of the amendment substantially tracks language Jefferson wrote into his draft of the Ordinance of 1784 (notwithstanding that Congress ended up deleting that language). I've never investigated the matter further, though.
 
Hardly certain.

Poor pregnant mother: Must undergo the rigors of childbirth as opposed to the lesser risk of abortion.

Poor child: Must risk not being adopted or being adopted by a non-loving family or being placed into a bad foster care situation.

Poor God: Must risk the child growing up to decide Jesus isn't his personal savior and therefore is forced (forced!) to condemn that child to everlasting torment in the burning fires of hell.

As a page-turner, your scenario is best. As a product of your most recent attempt at logic, abortion is best.

I agree with your initial assessment of "hardly certain", but that assessment also applies to your conclusion: "abortion is best". As regards the mother, it's not clear that the rigors of childbirth would necessarily exceed the risk posed by abortion. As regards the child, it's not clear that the risks of not being adopted or winding up in a bad adoption or bad foster care dictate militate in favor of pursuing abortion (the risks of which, to the child at least, are not only quantifiable but could fairly be described as absolute). As regards God, even if he exists, it's not clear that the notion of risk makes any sense in a divine context, or whether damnation constitutes a constraint on (or even an act of) God.
 
There are forceful counterarguments, however. Some of them are presented in this paper by David Post, professor of law at Temple University, who concludes that "few people in human history did more, in the sum total of their lifetimes, to dismantle the institution of slavery than Jefferson." And of course, the inspiration bequeathed by Jefferson to the anti-slavery movement far outlived the man himself.

I've suspected for many years, in fact, that Jefferson deserves partial authorship credit for the Thirteenth Amendment, since noticing back in law school that the text of the amendment substantially tracks language Jefferson wrote into his draft of the Ordinance of 1784 (notwithstanding that Congress ended up deleting that language). I've never investigated the matter further, though.
That's a new analysis for me, thanks. I've only had a chance to skim it; I'll read in depth later.
 
I agree with your initial assessment of "hardly certain", but that assessment also applies to your conclusion: "abortion is best".
No argument here. My point was that DOC's contention of a slam dunk win/win/win does not hold up using his logic.


ceo_esq said:
As regards the mother, it's not clear that the rigors of childbirth would necessarily exceed the risk posed by abortion. As regards the child, it's not clear that the risks of not being adopted or winding up in a bad adoption or bad foster care dictate militate in favor of pursuing abortion (the risks of which, to the child at least, are not only quantifiable but could fairly be described as absolute). As regards God, even if he exists, it's not clear that the notion of risk makes any sense in a divine context, or whether damnation constitutes a constraint on (or even an act of) God.
I'll defer on the objection to the relative risks of pregnancy and abortion.

Regards the other two, you aren't using DOC's perspective, which was the point of the post. Of course, you can't really use DOC's perspective, because it isn't consistent, but it does include both an all-loving God and the idea of absolute free choice. Because of the free choice thing, there is a divine risk. It may make no logical sense to you or me, but it does to DOC, until you point out the logical extension like I tried to do.
 
Regards the other two, you aren't using DOC's perspective, which was the point of the post. Of course, you can't really use DOC's perspective, because it isn't consistent, but it does include both an all-loving God and the idea of absolute free choice. Because of the free choice thing, there is a divine risk. It may make no logical sense to you or me, but it does to DOC, until you point out the logical extension like I tried to do.

I guess by questioning whether there was any divine risk, I meant to suggest that presumably from DOC's perspective, God cannot actually be harmed by a person's unbelief (whereas the unbeliever can be). God will presumably be concerned with objective good/bad rather than risk to himself as such. If the objective goodness of a person's endowment with free will weighs more heavily than the chance that that person will freely choose to damn himself, then it's hard to see how that possibility could be used to argue that the abortion is a better outcome from God's perspective (at least as a general rule).
 
Last edited:
There are forceful counterarguments, however. Some of them are presented in this paper by David Post, professor of law at Temple University, who concludes that "few people in human history did more, in the sum total of their lifetimes, to dismantle the institution of slavery than Jefferson." And of course, the inspiration bequeathed by Jefferson to the anti-slavery movement far outlived the man himself.


Well thanks for bringing this other viewpoint in. Its almost scary to read the brain power of this man sometimes -- although he is not without his faults as can be said for all of us.

I couldn't cut and paste your article but I found another site where I could.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, a denunciation of slavery, 1785

Jefferson quote:

The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it�The parent storms, the child looks on, catches the lineaments of wrath, puts on the same airs in the circle of smaller slaves, gives a loose to his worst passions, and thus nursed, educated, and daily exercised in tyranny, cannot but be stamped by it with odious peculiarities. The man must be a prodigy who can retain his manners and morals undepraved by such circumstances � if a slave can have a country in this world, it must be any other in preference to that in which he is to be born to live and labor for another � or entail his own miserable condition on the endless generations proceeding from him � Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever.

The Sheila variations website:

http://www.sheilaomalley.com/archives/003599.html

____

The above quote came from Works of Thomas Jefferson, Federal edition, vol. IV, pp. 82-84.

_____


Well Jefferson pretty much predicted the Civil war with that last sentence. He also demonstrates that at the time he wrote the above he was no Deist.

And I've already mentioned in post 2079 some of the reasons he probably didn't release his slaves even though he admitted how evil it was.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3433922#post3433922
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom