Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[UnrepentantSinner]

Oh, Sure US. you'll go and defend Hokulele's honor, but leave poor ol' Joobz out to dry?!? Huh?!?

You were doing such a mighty fine job yourself I felt my comments would just have gotten in the way.

US, I owe you a beer at TAM 6.

I'm going to try not to drink, but if I get weak I'll seek you out.

 

[Hokulele]

OK, make it a root beer then.

 

[kmortis]

Oh, Sure US. you'll go and defend Hokulele's honor, but leave poor ol' Joobz out to dry?!? Huh?!?


Unless of course you are implying that Hok isn't capable of taking care of herself? Is that your meaning?

Nothing personal joobz. Hok "Hoku, Hokulele, Ms./Mrs. H or That no football game predicting chick" is just cuter than you are. As you should know by now, we only defend the cute. Compare the outrage over destroying otter habitat vs. a cow's habitat...nary a moo.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Ahem. Hoku, Hokulele, Ms./Mrs. H or That no football game predicting chick, not Hok.

 

[Hokulele]

Ahem. Hoku, Hokulele, Ms./Mrs. H or That no football game predicting chick, not Hok.

Although I do prefer Hoku to Hok (Hoku in Hawai'ian means star, Hok doesn't mean anything.), I have gotten used to it. One really can't pick their own nickname.

 

[kmortis]

Although I do prefer Hoku to Hok (Hoku in Hawai'ian means star, Hok doesn't mean anything.), I have gotten used to it. One really can't pick their own nickname.

Unlike their nose, right?

 

[joobz]

One really can't pick their own nickname.

That's so true. My wife still refuses to call me Godtube.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

When I pointed out that Jefferson's opinions on the beauty of Jesus's ethical teachings really weren't worth much given that Jefferson was not only a slave holder but also raped at least one of his slaves, DOC replied with

And to Jefferson's and Washington's defense, if you inherited many slaves at age 14 like Jefferson and at age 10 like Washington you'd probably be a slave owner too. Washington did eventually will his slaves to be released.

Doc:

Well even though what Jefferson might have done back then was very wrong (by our modern standards) it was not illegal (or probably not even uncommon) in the southern culture of the times.

Here is what frontline said on this matter:

When John Adams heard the allegation of Jefferson's liaison with a slave woman, he was not surprised, identifying it "as a natural and almost unavoidable consequence of that foul contagion in the human character-- Negro slavery." Modern notions of romance--seeing Hemings and Jefferson as America's premier biracial couple--should not be projected onto unions born of trauma, dependence, and constraint.

On the other hand, such a relationship did not have to be based solely on heartless domination; it might have involved a measure of affection.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/morgan.html - 20k -

And would you say the United States (and today's blacks) are better off because Jefferson lived or worse off. I believe the vast majority of educated people would say the US (and the world for that matter) is better off because Jefferson lived. Thus almost all the blacks in the US today are better off because Jefferson lived. You have to look at the big picture sometimes. Sure Jefferson wasn't perfect and could have acted better to the slaves he inherited. But I'm sure glad he lived (even though he wasn't a mainline Christian) and I believe if most educated blacks today took some time to think about the big picture, they would be glad ,too, he lived, even though he "might" have done some bad things (by our modern standards) to one of the slaves he inherited when he was 14.

I don't see any blacks wanting to tear down the Jefferson monument in Washington or chisel his face off Mt Rushmore or take his image off our coins and paper money.

 

[bokonon]

I believe [...] he "might" have done some bad things (by our modern standards) to one of the slaves he inherited when he was 14.

Just a nit to pick here. He didn't inherit Sally Hemings when he was 14. She came to Monticello as a toddler, when Jefferson was about 30.

 

[Ladewig]

Well even though what Jefferson might have done back then was very wrong (by our modern standards) it was not illegal (or probably not even uncommon) in the southern culture of the times.

DOC, I suggest that you slow down and think more carefully before you reply to posts. You are so caught up in denying that you have made any mistakes that you are posting things that are sillier than the original posts.

You just said that we should not judge wrongdoings by modern standards but rather look at the culture of the times. DOC, you have just become a moral relativist. Welcome to the club. We don't usually find fundamentalist Christians here - they prefer to say that God's law is perfect and unchanging. Now you will no longer have to argue against abortion because it is "not illegal (or not even uncommon) in the culture of our times." You will no longer have to condemn homosexuality because it is "not illegal (or not even uncommon) in the culture of our times." I hope you enjoy your new-found freedom.

Here is what frontline said on this matter:

Are you aware that your hero D. James Kennedy called for a boycott of PBS because they were pitching the idea that homosexuality was normal? I guess religious apologetics is akin to politics in that they both make for strange bedfellows. Furthermore, see previous response as to why the opinions of Frontline commentators should have no influence on what Jesus's system of ethics calls right and wrong.

And would you say the United States (and today's blacks) are better off because Jefferson lived or worse off. I believe the vast majority of educated people would say the US (and the world for that matter) is better off because Jefferson lived. Thus almost all the blacks in the US today are better off because Jefferson lived. You have to look at the big picture sometimes. Sure Jefferson wasn't perfect and could have acted better to the slaves he inherited. But I'm sure glad he lived (even though he wasn't a mainline Christian) and I believe if most educated blacks today took some time to think about the big picture, they would be glad ,too, he lived, even though he "might" have done some bad things (by our modern standards) to one of the slaves he inherited when he was 14.

I don't see any blacks wanting to tear down the Jefferson monument in Washington or chisel his face off Mt Rushmore or take his image off our coins and paper money.

Well if the measure of something being ethical or not is how much will future generations benefit, then we are back to arguing that abortions might be one of the most ethical things we can do today. Your newly-adopted logic leads us to say that if future generations of people will be better off because there are fewer children born to poor, abused, or drug-addicted women then allowing all women access to safe, affordable, and legal abortions must be ethical. After all we "have to look at the big picture sometimes."


Feel free to retract your latest post. Although you may find it hard to understand, you will probably get more respect for withdrawing your comments and providing new comments than you will get for for simply claiming that your words were misconstrued.

. . . . . . .
Note to others: I do believe abortions should be safe, legal, and affordable. The previous argument was intended to show that DOC has stepped well outside of his self-defined boundaries of Jesus's ethics in his latest reply

 

[joobz]

Wow, DOC why are you trying so hard to NOT be wrong?
Remember, thou art mortal. We are all afflicted with the same disease of imperfection. Making mistakes and being wrong isn't shameful. Avoiding admitting errors is.

 

[DOC]

You just said that we should not judge wrongdoings by modern standards but rather look at the culture of the times.

You say I need to stop and slow down, the same needs to be said about you and others who constantly put words in my mouth or masterfully twist what I say . Over time people lose credibility when they constantly misquote or twist what someone says even if its unintentional.

I should have given a more in depth answer to your point but I never said we should not judge moral wrongdoings by modern standards. I merely pointed out as something to consider that what Jefferson did was not illegal by the culture of the day. Jefferson, the man on Mt. Rushmore and on our money, will answer to God for any sins. God looks at the heart and the circumstances.

Even the Catholic Church says the seriousness of sin is based on the circumstances. The fact that slavery was not illegal and part of the culture of the day is a circumstance to look at... You, and others seem to imply that what happened between Jefferson and Sally Hemmings is equal to some guy who rapes a girl in a back alley. I would disagree with you if that is what you believe...

You could even say that the Catholic Church believes in moral relativism to a degree.

For example if someone who is not poor steals some food because he doesn't want to pay for it, it is worse in the eyes of God than if someone steals the same food and that person is poor and hungry.

By your belief in moral absolutes. The person who is not poor and hungry and the person who is poor and hungry has committed equal wrongs when stealing food. The Catholic Church and I do not believe they are equal sins, and if you want to look down on that as moral relativism, then so be it.

 

[gypsey]

DOC
Even the Catholic Church says the seriousness of sin is based on the circumstances. The fact that slavery was not illegal and part of the culture of the day is a circumstance to look at... You, and others seem to imply that what happened between Jefferson and Sally Hemmings is equal to some guy who rapes a girl in a back alley. I would disagree with you if that is what you believe...

you're right it was nothing like some guy raping a girl in a back alley it was so much worse that i can't believe even a genocide condoning horror like you would try to make it sound like it was just something that went on,
that woman was property she had no escape, at least the girl in the back alley can get help after its over and knows it won't happen again especially once the rapist is locked up but Sally had no escape
she had nothing to look forward to but more of the same whenever master desired and no matter what you say since he owned her and No was not an option it was rape each and every time he called her to his bed!

you are one sick twisted individual and you need some serious help

 

[joobz]

For example if someone who is not poor steals some food because he doesn't want to pay for it, it is worse in the eyes of God than if someone steals the same food and that person is poor and hungry.

By your belief in moral absolutes. The person who is not poor and hungry and the person who is poor and hungry has committed equal wrongs when stealing food. The Catholic Church and I do not believe they are equal sins, and if you want to look down on that as moral relativism, then so be it.

Bolding mine:
DOC, here you go again, with committing the very act that you accuse others of doing. Ladewig never said he was a moral absolutist. I wonder why you would think so?


BTW, how does stealing food and being a slave owner compare? I'm really starting to think, based upon your example, that a belief in god can result in highly immoral views and attitudes.

 

[DOC]

you're right it was nothing like some guy raping a girl in a back alley it was so much worse that i can't believe even a genocide condoning horror like you would try to make it sound like it was just something that went on,
that woman was property she had no escape, at least the girl in the back alley can get help after its over and knows it won't happen again especially once the rapist is locked up but Sally had no escape
she had nothing to look forward to but more of the same whenever master desired and no matter what you say since he owned her and No was not an option it was rape each and every time he called her to his bed!

I realize you are very upset about the issue of slavery and people should be upset. And yes Jefferson, the man on Mt. Rushmore, was not perfect and will have to answer for any sins he committed according to my beliefs. But I would like to ask you, do you believe the 35,000,000 blacks and the 70,000,000 other minorities in this country are better off because the main author of the Declaration of Independence (Jefferson) lived or worse off.

 

[DOC]

DOC, here you go again, with committing the very act that you accuse others of doing. Ladewig never said he was a moral absolutist.

Well calling someone a moral absolutist doesn't seem to be a put down to me. But for some reason every time people misquote me or put words in my mouth it aways seems (surprise, surprise) to come out having negative connotations.

 

[Hokulele]

Over time people lose credibility when they constantly misquote or twist what someone says even if its unintentional.

You mean like the misquote of Jefferson's letter to John Adams you deliberately posted on the previous page of this very thread? I wonder what that did to your credibility . . .

 

[joobz]

Well calling someone a moral absolutist doesn't seem to be a put down to me. But for some reason every time people misquote me or put words in my mouth it aways seems (surprise, surprise) to come out having negative connotations.

Are you speaking of yourself? You seem extremely confused.

I was simply pointing out the FACT. Ladewig didn't say he was a moral absolutist. You described him as such.


You seem to be avoiding the fact that you compared being a slave owner to a hungry man stealing food. Why would you think these are similar?

 

[Hokulele]

You seem to be avoiding the fact that you compared being a slave owner to a hungry man stealing food. Why would you think these are similar?

And don't forget, DOC seems to think that raping one of your slaves is better morally speaking than raping a stranger in an alley.

I am really glad that DOC's version of morality is not legal in this country.

 

[joobz]

And don't forget, DOC seems to think that raping one of your slaves is better morally speaking than raping a stranger in an alley.

I am really glad that DOC's version of morality is not legal in this country.

He also believes that america was more moral in the 50's, when we had lynchings, racial segregation, women abused in homes, mccarthyism, no worker's rights etc. It's no suprise that this was the same time when there was a weakening in the church-state seperation. He's a perfect example of why the seperation of church and state, which the founding fathers created, is so important for a moral society.