“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

Yes, exactly my point.
Are you kidding? You think Milo Yiannopoulos entertaining a roomful of conservatives for a couple of hours is a greater threat to our way of life and our freedoms than the masked guys running around setting fires, breaking things and bloodying people's faces?

How are you better than what you oppose?
 
Do you know why caveman is claiming that they did not shut down the speech because they disagreed with milo?

Option 1) puberty hurts

Option 2) burning **** is fun

Option 3) to feed an infantile narrative that smashing windows, setting fires, and shouting down speakers is totally progressive, man

I don't think I've agreed with many, if any, actual position points Milo has given. I want him to be able to make them, however, for all the reasons put forth in the thread so far. For however enlightened I think my views are, if they can't stand up against mere dissenting opinion then there's something fundamentally wrong with them.

The example I keep coming back to is marriage equality. It's something I feel passionate enough about that when I run into someone who is against it I want to list to them all the reasons why I think it's a good/proper/healthy thing and thereby maybe change their mind, and not simply scream "homopobe!" and lob a brick at them.
 
I'll bite for this one, mostly because I'm curious where you are going with such an odd challenge:

Fascist ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others. Flat-earth philosophy is harmless quackery. The issue pretty obviously is not about disagreement.

Islamic ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.
Christian ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.

Aren't these comparable?
 
Yes, exactly my point.

And a great many people think that Anarchism is a clear danger to life and property and society in general. Does that give them a right to shut you up?
God I just went against my own advice on not feeding trolls....
 
How would you know, since what they post isn't necessarily what they believe, by definition?

I'm pretty confident both Caveman1917 and Milo Yiannopoulos believe their shtick in addition to enjoying whatever anger and frustration they incite in others. If they don't they're not likely to ever admit it, which makes it a distinction without a difference.

My opinion from observation. Your mileage may vary.
 
Do you know why caveman is claiming that they did not shut down the speech because they disagreed with milo?

Not just because they disagree with him, but (according to Caveman1917) Milo Yiannopoulos is a fascist and Fascist ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.

The problem with that distinction is that it fits any political idea and quite a few scientific ideas. Anarchism, climate change, childcare, Obamacare vs Trumpcare, urban planning, farm subsidies...it would be hard to think of any political issue where someone doesn't think an opinion one way or another is threatening to their way of life and their rights.
 
Not just because they disagree with him, but (according to Caveman1917) Milo Yiannopoulos is a fascist and Fascist ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.

The problem with that distinction is that it fits any political idea and quite a few scientific ideas. Anarchism, climate change, childcare, Obamacare vs Trumpcare, urban planning, farm subsidies...it would be hard to think of any political issue where someone doesn't think an opinion one way or another is threatening to their way of life and their rights.

Coincidentally, the Chicago Tribune had an article about the Nazis trying to march through Skokie Illinois just today.

they were actual fascists, and they got their march and it turned out fine.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ch-flashback-perspec-0312-20170310-story.html
 
I'm pretty confident both Caveman1917 and Milo Yiannopoulos believe their shtick in addition to enjoying whatever anger and frustration they incite in others. If they don't they're not likely to ever admit it, which makes it a distinction without a difference.

The important distinction is that Milo's shtick is to engage in speech, and caveman1917's shtick is to engage in violence to suppress speech.
 
Islamic ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.
Christian ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.

Aren't these comparable?

No. Why would they be? Every pair of things is comparable in some ways and incomparable in other ways. You have to actually show that these things are comparable in a relevant way.
 
What are their views on window ownership?

No that's not the right question. The right question is, do Christians and Muslims when they demonstrate publically use it to assault minorities and other undesirables? Are these events used to further increase such assaults with the goal of working towards enacting genocide?
 
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Islamic ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.
Christian ideals are threatening to the way of life and rights of others.

Aren't these comparable?

Well, they are comparable, but dramatically different in motivation. Christianity and Islam are religions that are (at least in theory) about love and tolerance. Fascism is more along the lines of hate and intolerance, setting a de facto adversarial challenge to all comers that would likely be absent in a disagreement with a Priest or Imam.

The much larger issue is creating a breathalyzer controlled laptop. It's unnerving to see posts that one does not recall making, and there was evidently a comprehension issue on my part with caveman1917's query.

I'll just sit quietly over here...
 
Option 1) puberty hurts

Option 2) burning **** is fun

Option 3) to feed an infantile narrative that smashing windows, setting fires, and shouting down speakers is totally progressive, man

I don't think I've agreed with many, if any, actual position points Milo has given. I want him to be able to make them, however, for all the reasons put forth in the thread so far. For however enlightened I think my views are, if they can't stand up against mere dissenting opinion then there's something fundamentally wrong with them.

The example I keep coming back to is marriage equality. It's something I feel passionate enough about that when I run into someone who is against it I want to list to them all the reasons why I think it's a good/proper/healthy thing and thereby maybe change their mind, and not simply scream "homopobe!" and lob a brick at them.

The marriage analogy is a good one, but that is a discussion that can (and should) be held rationally. Fascism by its nature is a naked threat to...well, everyone except fascists. Can't really wax metaphysical with an ethnic cleansing advocate who spouts Nazi propaganda; the battle lines are drawn and there is basically nothing left to discuss rationally, hence the ordinarily unwarranted jump to...a more visceral show of disagreement.
 
The marriage analogy is a good one, but that is a discussion that can (and should) be held rationally. Fascism by its nature is a naked threat to...well, everyone except fascists. Can't really wax metaphysical with an ethnic cleansing advocate who spouts Nazi propaganda; the battle lines are drawn and there is basically nothing left to discuss rationally, hence the ordinarily unwarranted jump to...a more visceral show of disagreement.


Accomplishing what, exactly? In specific terms can you say what good this actually does, apart from giving some people an unearned sense of self-righteousness?

Not trying to be flippant, but in neither this nor the 'punch a Nazi' thread has anyone shown what property destruction or physical assault actually accomplishes toward stopping 'fascism'. For the sake of argument let's grant the disputed point that the targets are even fascists in the first place : do you honestly believe that silencing or socking someone who genuinely wants to exterminate the 'mud people' will dissuade them in any way? They really want to wipe out all of <group X> from the face of the earth, so viscous is their ideology. But then suddenly their rally is disrupted by a gaggle of privileged wankers breaking random people's stuff - are they going to stop and think "Oh, guess we'll have to grudgingly live in harmony with all mankind now. Shoot, and I so wanted a Holocaust this Christmas. "

And that's not even touching on :

1) It hasn't been shown that these are actually close-minded, irredeemable, by Hoyle "fascists".

2) You don't need to be able to discuss higher concepts to get to the issue of basic humanity with anyone- doesn't mean you'll succeed or win them over, but even a mild nudge in the direction of decency with 1 person out of 10 is more than having them all double down because you just clocked them.

3) Abandoning the rule of law makes you (generic you) the threat to Democracy, not the odious talking head giving a speech

4) Who gave you (again, generic) to right to decide when someone's speech has crossed the line into 'no point in talking, time to burn stuff'?

5) You've now show just about any bigoted group in the country that all they need to do to silence pro-choice, or atheist, or anti-Trump gatherings is threaten to **** up a Starbucks if these deeply anti-American radicals are allowed to get together and talk

And now to be intentionally flippant : you know who else thought it was a good idea to use physical violence and intimidation against groups whom they opposed? The SA.
 
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No that's not the right question. The right question is, do Christians and Muslims when they demonstrate publically use it to assault minorities and other undesirables? Are these events used to further increase such assaults with the goal of working towards enacting genocide?

What group is Milo Yiannopoulos working towards enacting genocide on?

You want to be a violent thug and you rationalize it by saying you only want to be a violent thug with "bad people" who deserve it. Who fits the bill? Fascists!

When you say "fascists" we all picture Nazis goose stepping around, fantasizing about building extermination camps and creating their all-powerful police state, and it's easy to think maybe throwing a punch or a brick against those guys is not such a bad thing, right? We've all grown up where "Nazi" is the epitome of evil, and they are very evil, but we've seen your definition of "fascist" to be so loose and all encompassing that it seems to include anyone who isn't an anarchist who is openly opposing the existence of nation-states.

We really have two issues here. First, it's not really okay to get your way by violence, even if you're only violent with bad people. It doesn't win the argument unless someone uses enough violence to become as ban an oppressor as they fear their victim might become.

The second issue is I think you're being disingenuous about who you're claiming to be acceptable targets. I really don't think it's just the wannabe Nazi, I think you're just going to apply that label wherever and whenever you want to use violence.
 

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