This is what pathological skeptics believe

Anyway, what meta-analysis shows evidence of paranormal effects?

'Cause you know that if you mention the PEAR paper we will all laugh at you.
 
Interesting Ian said:
As I keep asking, how does anyone know that he doesn't simply accept ridiculous claims? Everything that I have read suggests that only ludicrous claims are accepted and never anything which research and experience suggests probably exists :rolleyes: So let's cut the cr@p should we? ;)
As far as I can see, all the claims presented have fallen into one of four groups.

1. Commonplace effects, rejected because there are no paranormal elements.
2. Not testable.
3. Indecipherable.
4. Ridiculous.

Can you name anything that is clearly paranormal that you do not consider ridiculous?
 
Clearly, you consider dowsing to be ridiculous (tested several times, failed).

You consider Yellow Bamboo ridiculous - and fair enough. (Tested. Failed.)

You consider being able to see while blindfolded ridiculous. (Tested, shown to be fraudulent.)

That's just from recent memory. What else has there been?

Oh yes: Homeopathy - ridiculous.

I agree with you, Ian, they are all absurd claims. So what is a paranormal claim that isn't absurd?
 
Interesting Ian said:
Verified? What does that mean? Obviously it takes a statistical analysis. Meta-analysis strongly suggests an effect, if you don't agree you have to say why.

Statistics are never better than the quality of the input. Meta analysis is invariably worse.

When is it right? When have I ever been shown to be wrong about anything in my paranormal beliefs?

Never. After all, one cannot prove a negative. However, when have you ever been shown to be right?

Anyway, it's not right every time. Time and time and time again it is shown to be wrong. NDEs really do occur (no matter what they are), lucid dreams really do happen, rocks really do fall from the sky etc etc.

Things that were not paranormal at all have wrongly been categorized as paranormal, yes.

So, which of your paranormal claims do you wish to classify as "not paranormal, but as of yet undiscovered materialism"?

Hans
 
H3LL said:
Person A bends spoons and claims it is an invisible, undetectable force from an invisible, undetectable being with invisible, incomprehensible powers existing in an unknown, undetectable place that only invisible, undetectable bits of people can visit is fine for them to say.

However, person B easily and obviously shows that the same thing is achieved by bending the spoon with your hands when no one is looking.

To me, when this happens I feel that it is required of person A to show that they are definitely not doing what person B is doing.

The woos seem unable to understand that the collection of undetectables is less plausible than the obvious, easily replicated, easily understood demonstration/explanation in the real world.

BTW, before someone 'spoons' me to death, I use it as an example for all paranormal/super-natural claims.

The woos seem able (maybe?) to exercise great critical thinking when buying a used car, but unable to apply the same thinking to their cherished beliefs.

Interesting Ian is a perfect example of a person firmly enamoured of person A and discounting of person B.

I'm not picking on you Ian, I'm entertained by your posts, but you are well known here and our best example of the privative of skepticism.

I have no idea where you get this notion from. I suspect you are reading peoples' responses to my posts rather than my posts themselves.

I always prefer mundane explanations provided they are realistic and plausible. Before supposing anyone can bend spoons with their minds we would need to eliminate all possible means whereby s/he could cheat. Personally I doubt that people really can bend spoons in an anomalous manner, but I make no definitive assertions.
 
PixyMisa said:
Anyway, what meta-analysis shows evidence of paranormal effects?

'Cause you know that if you mention the PEAR paper we will all laugh at you.

Why? What's wrong with any pear paper?
 
Interesting Ian said:
I always prefer mundane explanations provided they are realistic and plausible. Before supposing anyone can bend spoons with their minds we would need to eliminate all possible means whereby s/he could cheat. Personally I doubt that people really can bend spoons in an anomalous manner, but I make no definitive assertions.
Well, we agree there, although my doubt is rather stronger than yours.

We know that people can bend spoons in ways that precisely duplicate Uri Geller's, and without any paranormal effects. Therefore it is up to Geller to demonstrate that he is not using normal methods. Since he refuses to do so, there is no reason at all to believe him.

Since no-one has ever demonstrated the ability to bend anything using mental power, we can dismiss it as ridiculous.

So what is something that isn't ridiculous, Ian, that you consider paranormal?
 
Interesting Ian said:
Why? What's wrong with any pear paper?
(a) Their experimental controls are abysmal.
(b) The papers themselves are bumf.

But the real kicker is:

(c) The PEAR meta-analysis paper shows that as experimental controls are tightened, evidence for paranormal effects disappears.

The PEAR meta-analysis was done to find evidence of the paranormal; instead it showed that any such evidence (in the previous PEAR studies) was due to sloppy experimental design.
 
PixyMisa said:
As far as I can see, all the claims presented have fallen into one of four groups.

1. Commonplace effects, rejected because there are no paranormal elements.
2. Not testable.
3. Indecipherable.
4. Ridiculous.

Can you name anything that is clearly paranormal that you do not consider ridiculous?


Beth Clarkson's possible anomalous ability.
 
PixyMisa said:
(a) Their experimental controls are abysmal.
(b) The papers themselves are bumf.

But the real kicker is:

(c) The PEAR meta-analysis paper shows that as experimental controls are tightened, evidence for paranormal effects disappears.

The PEAR meta-analysis was done to find evidence of the paranormal; instead it showed that any such evidence (in the previous PEAR studies) was due to sloppy experimental design.

Hang on a sec . .just hang on a sec. Was it not the case that the protocol was changed. OK, that might also mean tighter experimental controls, but the diminishing of the effect might be due to the former rather than the latter.

If the results are due to sloppy experimental design then be so good as to provide us with all the relevant details. What was the artefact(s) responsible for the positive results?
 
Interesting Ian said:
When is it right? When have I ever been shown to be wrong about anything in my paranormal beliefs?
Well you have been shown to be wrong repeatedly in your scientific beliefs, which are actually testable and can be researched and studied.
Why would you believe yourself to be more accurate about things that aren't currently verifiable (or there are no useful results for)?

Take a look here

I'll quote a bit since I'm sure that people will simply close their eyes, scream, and say "no I'm not looking at your links"!
That's funny - I started this entire thread as a result of reading one of your links.
 
Ashles said:
Well you have been shown to be wrong repeatedly in your scientific beliefs,

Not sure what a scientific belief is, but nevermind.

Tell me, what scientific beliefs of mine have been shown to be incorrect?

OK, I'm going to Morrisons now. It might give you some time to dream up an answer :rolleyes:
 
Ashles said:
Well you have been shown to be wrong repeatedly in your scientific beliefs, which are actually testable and can be researched and studied.
Why would you believe yourself to be more accurate about things that aren't currently verifiable (or there are no useful results for)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take a look here

I'll quote a bit since I'm sure that people will simply close their eyes, scream, and say "no I'm not looking at your links"!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<a series of quotes showing people's incorrect predictions of the worth and validity of some of "Edisons" inventions>

That's funny - I started this entire thread as a result of reading one of your links.
... and of course Edison was infallible and never made the same errors as those quoted by Ian, like:

It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane, which two or three years ago were thought to hold the solution to the [flying machine] problem, have been exhausted, and that we must turn elsewhere.
Thomas Edison (1895)

I have always consistently opposed high-tension and alternating systems of electric lighting...not only on account of danger, but because of their general unreliability and unsuitability for any general system of distribution.
Thomas Edison (The Dangers of Electric Lighting, North American Review, November, 1889)

so.... what was the point of those quotes again?
 
EHocking said:
*snip*
so.... what was the point of those quotes again?
Ye olde non-sequiteur: Scientist are sometimes wrong, so paranormal claims must be right :rolleyes:.

Hans
 
Not looking at your links. Funny, Ian. Why do you think we're all in this topic, laughing? It's because the quotes in that link have nothing to do with us. They only have to do with negative advocate woo-woos. I have yet to see evidence that such people exist outside the imaginations of positive advocate woo-woos. We need evidence, not straw men and ad hominems. Show us a useful link to some evidence of the paranormal, or failing that, evidence of one of those people described in that straw man link of yours.
 
Interesting Ian said:
Not sure what a scientific belief is, but nevermind.

Tell me, what scientific beliefs of mine have been shown to be incorrect?

OK, I'm going to Morrisons now. It might give you some time to dream up an answer :rolleyes:
You believed the grey colours in the checkerboard illusion were different.
You believed that you can't make physical contact with air.
You believed that it is possible to create skin damage through psychosomatic means.
You believed that conscious/hypnotic control of water excretion was possible.
You believe if someone has not encountered something unusual before, it will be invisible to them (the Native Americans/Columbus ships debate).

Those are a few to start with.

And what's the problem with the term 'scientific belief'?
If you believe something incorrect about science, what would you describe it as? If you believe that water is a solid at 50 degrees centigrade I would describe that as a 'scientific belief'. An incorrect one.
 
Ashles: "You [Ian] believe if someone has not encountered something unusual before, it will be invisible to them (the Native Americans/Columbus ships debate)."

Maybe that's why I don't see any evidence in Ian's posts, and only straw men in that link he's so fond of. Oh, wait, I've seen unusual stuff before, like ferrofluid, Katamari Damacy, and evidence of T-Rex primarily being a scavenger (which was unusual for me, as I was raised to believe it was primarily a hunter: I now believe that T-Rex was primarily a scavenger.) So that's one Ian hypothesis falsified right there.
 
Ian's straw men are becoming so huge I think we may have to start renaming them:

WM-001.jpg
 
I’m still not sure what pathological skepticism really is. Closed minded—prejudicial thinking? Automatically nay-saying without investigation? I don’t even call that skepticism. In fact I’m not skeptical about things I strongly believe I wonder if the term “pathological skepticism” might not be something of an oxymoron.

I’ve certainly been accused of being a pathological skeptic—many times. In each case it was in response to some honest (albeit blunt) criticism of a web page. I’ve found that people leaning to the ‘woo’ side tend to be very thin-skinned when questioned and some of them become very defensive in a way that I can only describe as pathological.

What’s with that? I’ve never met a skeptic who reacts in the same way. In fact I suspect that a true skeptic can withstand critical review without descending into one or more logical fallacies. That’s because to be skeptical is to be *not knowing.* whereas most people on the other side of the fence seem to have so little wiggle room in their beliefs that any counter argument or criticism is a personal attack, some people (Alfred Lehmberg for example) says that being criticized is like getting punched in the face.
 
Just recently had a thought: Maybe there is evidence of the paranormal out there, but the believers are covering it up because showing that evidence to a skeptic would cause him to believe. And since paranormal believers all seem to think skeptics are immune to evidence, they'd rather not shatter their worldview by demonstrating that a skeptic can be convinced by evidence.

Method of falsifying this hypothesis: Have a paranormal believer present verifiable evidence to a skeptic.
 

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