This is some f*cked up ◊◊◊◊:

[Jocko]

Re: To Jocko:

I don't think Nero ordering the burning of Rome, is the same thing as Bush reading a kiddie book while we were under attack?

No, no, no.

I meant, are you intimating that Bush deliberately brushed off news of the attack so he could remain engrossed in his book? That he did to as an act of escapism, as Nero supposedly played the fiddle and refused to give orders during the sacking of Rome?

I hope you've at least heard of THAT little fable in your "worldly travels," no?

Come on, King, if anyone should be able to identify escapism, it's you. Is that what you're saying? You think the president was paralyzed by fear or simple apathy?

Edited to add: You keep intimating that there is some blank that we are all too dense to fill in for you. Why not just spit out your point and be done with it?

 

[Jocko]

Re: To Jocko:

And I WILL write a letter or two to this affect, to my Representative soon.

Better spell "effect" correctly, first. And crayon is a definite first-class ticket into the nearest waste paper basket. But keep the random caps and misapplied quotations. That's pure gold, baby.

Hey, here's a thought. Why not call Howard Stern and get him on board with this great idea? Make sure you do it while he's on the air- you know, when he's the most serious.

 

[Crossbow]

Re: To Jocko:

I don't think Nero ordering the burning of Rome, is the same thing as Bush reading a kiddie book while we were under attack?

---

To Crossbow:

I don't think that is beyond comprehension, however given the fact they are alotted to spend 14 million on the 9-11 investigation I doubt they'll uncover the same amount of 'dirt' that the 80 million they spent investigating Clinton's BJ got them.

I think there is clear evidence that the President acted wrongly when he didn't immediately take action as the Commander in Chief, once he KNEW we were being attacked.

And I WILL write a letter or two to this affect, to my Representative soon.

Good for you!

I would appreciate it if you keep the Forum informed of your progess considering that you were the one who started this.

 

[King of the Americas]

To Jocko:

Interesting question...

WHAT was going through the President's mind, as he was reading the book about the goat...

After seeing the photo of him getting the 9:05 message, I saw a "What the hell did I get myself into"-look, but is someone else's characterization.

I think that he really didn't know what hell to do, and it was more of a procrastinating kind of thing. Like he KNEW he did badly on the test, but was unwilling to turn it over to see what he actually made on it, kind of thing.

Scared, or frightened...?

I am not sure, the only thing I DO know is that he wasted some 30 mintues, while people's lives were at stake, filling his thougths with a kiddie book about a goat. Further reports also have him, "...clearly trying to stretch out the moment", in that even after he finished the story, he "milled about the room pontificating on his education policy".

I think you used the right word, after all.

INSTEAD of acting like the Commander in Chief, he played nanny for as long as he possibly could.

So, "Yes, I'd call that escapism."

 

[RandFanJr.]

Re: To Jocko:

Interesting question...

WHAT was going through the President's mind, as he was reading the book about the goat...

After seeing the photo of him getting the 9:05 message, I saw a "What the hell did I get myself into"-look, but is someone else's characterization.

I think that he really didn't know what hell to do, and it was more of a procrastinating kind of thing. Like he KNEW he did badly on the test, but was unwilling to turn it over to see what he actually made on it, kind of thing.

Scared, or frightened...?

I am not sure, the only thing I DO know is that he wasted some 30 mintues, while people's lives were at stake, filling his thougths with a kiddie book about a goat. Further reports also have him, "...clearly trying to stretch out the moment", in that even after he finished the story, he "milled about the room pontificating on his education policy".

I think you used the right word, after all.

INSTEAD of acting like the Commander in Chief, he played nanny for as long as he possibly could.

So, "Yes, I'd call that escapism."

Well that is your opinion. That and a handfull of spit is worth roughly a handful of spit.

It is possible that you are right. Objectivity forces me to accept that possibility. Your bias and lack of objectivity prevents you from considering any other posibility.

That is why you aren't a leader and Bush is. Bush doesn't dream up schemes to put dirt from death valley on top of some mountain for no practical purpose. You on the other hand, do. And we are supposed to care what your opinion is?

 

[King of the Americas]

Hal Bidlack...

...just PM'ed me, to clarify that he can't and or won't provide me with 'classified information', but assures me that I am wrong none the less...even though he refuses to tell me HOW I am wrong or what I am wrong about.

Interesting that a moderator for the JREF board would use the argument, "You are wrong, but 'I' won't provide evidence to prove it."

My Questions that he couldn't answer were about the top speed of an averagely loaded fighter, how long it would take them to travel a 100 miles at an upper end rate of speed, and WHO was the only one to have authority to shoot down a civilian plane on 9-11.

He WAS able to provide me with the closest military airport to the Pentagon, Langley.

After a couple of searches I found that an F-16 could easily do 1500 mph, and even faster. Given that Langley is sure to have a few of these things on stand-by, at 66% thrust a fighter could have easily intercepted an airlner, IF it were already airborn and flying over a base as close to the Pentagon as Langley.

So what does this mean?

That given 30 minutes, the President COULD have given an order that could have possibly averted the Penagon attack.

Langley is less that 75 miles away from the Pentagon, and Hall has already noted that the President doesn't have to order the scrambling of jets.

30 minutes is almost TWICE as much time as a fighter would need to get there, NOT even at its 'top speed'.

 

[RandFanJr.]

You know, if Bush did have a moment of uncertainty and I concede that it is possible, I don't think it was something as egregious as you have made it out to be.

History is replete with such examples of people who have stumbled but then have risen to face their worst fears. You look at Bush and only conclude that he was not up to the job for reading a book for 30 minutes. Assuming the worse, can this alone be an indictment of a man? What if he faced his fears, overcame them and rose to inspire a nation to respond.

I don't judge a person by his lowest point, I judge him by his highest. You choose to only see the worst possible scenario and assuming it is true you choose to only see the worst possible in the person.

CROWD: U.S.A.! U.S.A.!

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all. I want you all to know --

Q Can't hear you.

THE PRESIDENT: I can't talk any louder. (Laughter.)

I want you all to know that America today -- that America today is on bended knee in prayer for the people whose lives were lost here, for the workers who work here, for the families who mourn. This nation stands with the good people of New York City, and New Jersey and Connecticut, as we mourn the loss of thousands of our citizens.

Q I can't hear you.

THE PRESIDENT: I can hear you. (Applause.) I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. (Applause.) And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon. (Applause.).

In the ensuing weeks the President was resolute. Too resolute for some. He did not waiver. He did not cower. He came up with a plan and implemented it. Because of his actions he has enjoyed high poll marks.

I know this means nothing to you. You hate Bush and this little example fits in your world view that he is incompetent.

I just want you to know that we are not all so cynical and lacking in objectivity. That we are able to judge him by his totality and not this single incident that we don't truly know what was in his mind. I'll leave that to you and Uri Gellar.

I also want to note that not everyone who has responded to you agrees with my sentiments. A number of them do feel Bush is not a particularly great or even good president and I respect those views. However I think most if not all would agree that this one event should not be the basis for an indictment of Bush. In other words you have failed to make the case to anyone but yourself.

RandFan

 

[King of the Americas]

No RandFan:

Bush is President because his father was.

---

What 'other' possibilities do YOU suggest happened.

I provide 2, only once of which being that Bush was practicing a little 'escapism'.

My other contention is that Bush really ISN'T running things, and that he was doing exactly what he was best at, during and shortly after the attacks.

What exactly IS your contention?

I mean, it is easy to attack me personally, over and over again. However, you haven't provided any evidence to contradict my own, so what gives?

 

[RandFanJr.]

Re: No RandFan:

Bush is President because his father was.

---

What 'other' possibilities do YOU suggest happened.

I provide 2, only once of which being that Bush was practicing a little 'escapism'.

My other contention is that Bush really ISN'T running things, and that he was doing exactly what he was best at, during and shortly after the attacks.

What exactly IS your contention?

I mean, it is easy to attack me personally, over and over again. However, you haven't provided any evidence to contradict my own, so what gives?

This is just not true. I have given you a number of posibilities. You simply choose to ignore them.

 

[RandFanJr.]

A possibilty that I have given you before KOA. A possibility that you refuse to acknowledge because of your hatred and bias.

Mr. President "We are under attack. Two planes have hit the World Trade Center. We are gathering together your cabinet and are preparing a briefing by conference call with the joint chiefs of staff. It will take about 30 minutes to get everyone together and analyze the inteligence so that you can make a proper decision. We will need you to break and come with us in half an hour.

 

[King of the Americas]

To RandFan:

I am well aware of the unwavering support the Presidnet has and has gotten. I am also well aware of the 'passes' for his failures he has gotten.

I have given him 'partial kudoes' for the way he *cough*rose*cough* to the occasion, but as I stated before, he had 200 million people standing behind him, who the hell COULDN'T have rose to the occasion!?

I don't hate President Bush, but I am willing to call him on the carpet for his inadiquacies, especially when they lead to a direct attack on our nation's military headquarters.

Quite frankly, I don't know why you or anyone else would have a problem 'identifying' and analyzing President Bush's leadership skills during THE time of crisis.


You Wrote:

"...if Bush did have a moment of uncertainty and I concede that it is possible."

IF...?

Pardon me, but IF he had left the class room and began ACTING like the Commander in Chief, all those who died in the Pentagon that day might still be alive.

What 'I' find difficulty in, is that this whole damn thing is NOT being talked about in the news, becauseof the nationalistic patriotism that has sweep the U.S.

The President DID show weakness and an absolute hesistancy, that could very well have led to a worse attack result, than would have IF he had acted sooner. This has been all but ignored, and even defended.

This is a pity.

 

[King of the Americas]

To RandFan:

You Wrote:

Mr. President "We are under attack. Two planes have hit the World Trade Center. We are gathering together your cabinet and are preparing a briefing by conference call with the joint chiefs of staff. It will take about 30 minutes to get everyone together and analyze the inteligence so that you can make a proper decision. We will need you to break and come with us in half an hour.

..."In the meantime, you just read the goat book, and try to keep your mind on more important matters."

The REALLY f*cked up ◊◊◊◊ is that your okay with that!!!

---

Edited to add:

By the by, there is NO EVIDENCE what so ever to suggest ANYONE told him this. Mr. Card, (confirmed by Air) said ONLY that "A second plane has hit the WTC. We are under attack."

IF what you say is TRUE, then why didn't Ari say THAT was what was told to the President!? It 'sounds' a lot better than what is presently out there.

 

[aggle_rithm]

Re: Several respones:

To Aggie:

Don't call me Aggie, please. I went to the University of Texas.

Okay, so now you are comparing a western movie to the actions of a 21st century President...

Not really. I was comparing the actions of a character in a western movie to the actions of a 21st century President. And don't roll your eyes at me!!

Sorry this isn't a more thoughtful and reasoned post, but I suspect such a post would be wasted.

This thread is growing wearisome. I think I'll take up a more meaningful activity, such as collecting pocket lint.

 

[RandFanJr.]

RandFan
Mr. President "We are under attack. Two planes have hit the World Trade Center. We are gathering together your cabinet and are preparing a briefing by conference call with the joint chiefs of staff. It will take about 30 minutes to get everyone together and analyze the intelligence so that you can make a proper decision. We will need you to break and come with us in half an hour.

..."In the meantime, you just read the goat book, and try to keep your mind on more important matters."

If my above quote was correct then Bush's actions were not out of line. There was nothing for him to do for a few minutes. He had a staff preparing everything for him and he knew that he had some time so he did what he had gone to the school to do. His mistake was not realizing that there are hateful people in this world that will interpret everything in a negative and cynical light. People like your self.

Odd you complain about being attacked personally yet you have no compunction in attacking the President.

The REALLY f*cked up ◊◊◊◊ is that your okay with that!!!

The only thing f*cked up here is a guy who thinks he can turn the world upside down or something to that effect by moving a handful of dirt yet attacks the president. THAT is f*cked up ◊◊◊◊.

By the by, there is NO EVIDENCE what so ever to suggest ANYONE told him this. Mr. Card, (confirmed by Air) said ONLY that "A second plane has hit the WTC. We are under attack."

IF what you say is TRUE, then why didn't Ari say THAT was what was told to the President!? It 'sounds' a lot better than what is presently out there.

Hold on there, first you say it is "f*cked up" then you say it sounds better. Which is it? Better f*cked up?

Ari does not tell us everything that the President was told. I don't know I don't care. I don't know what the President was told or what the President knew or what contingencies the President had to deal with emergencies. Different leaders have different styles. Bush might have had a perfectly good reason for doing what he did. He might not have had a good reason. It doesn't really matter except it has given ammunition to malicious people with out any objectivity to assail him.

I have given him 'partial kudoes' for the way he *cough*rose*cough* to the occasion, but as I stated before, he had 200 million people standing behind him, who the hell COULDN'T have rose to the occasion!?

YOU!

I don't hate President Bush

[sneeze]ahhhhbullshit[/sneeze] This reminds me of a speech by a white supremacist who said that he "didn't hate black people". It made me wonder what else the guy lies about.

Quite frankly, I don't know why you or anyone else would have a problem 'identifying' and analyzing President Bush's leadership skills during THE time of crisis.

Bush was superb, I am very proud of his actions. On the other hand, I don't know why you would not have a problem analyzing you’re a$$ from a hole in the ground.

Pardon me, but IF he had left the class room and began ACTING like the Commander in Chief, all those who died in the Pentagon that day might still be alive.

I don't think that there is any proof of that. You are making assumptions. Hindsight is 20/20 and you are playing Monday morning quarterback. Considering the source, you, then I guess it doesn't really matter does it?

What 'I' find difficulty in, is that this whole damn thing is NOT being talked about in the news, because of the nationalistic patriotism that has sweep the U.S.

The world is not full of hateful little minds.

The President DID show weakness and an absolute hesistancy, that could very well have led to a worse attack result, than would have IF he had acted sooner.

You have made the case that he could have done something. You have not made the case that most reasonable people in his position would have done something different. I'm glad no one will have to ever suffer under your leadership.

 

[Kodiak]

Re: To ssbal & Kodiak:

Kodiak, so you find that the President was NOT informed of the 1st plane hitting the tower at all, UNTIL after the second plane hit?

Where did you get the "9:10" time frame? ALL of the reports that 'I' have read say that the President was informed that a 'second' plane has hit the WTC, and that were were indeed under attack several minutes BEFORE that.

Here is where I got my timeline from

 

[Kodiak]

I just realized what KOA is doing...

It's called "arm-chair quarterbacking"!

You're nothing but a half-a$$ed amateur with delusions of grandeur.

Respond to my questions about your supposed knowledge of radar, and I might be forced to reevaluate...

 

[Crossbow]

KOA:

Do yourself a favor and follow the advice that President Clinton's mentioned the other day on C-SPAN.

If you find yourself in hole,
Stop digging.

 

[lyghtningbyrd]

Hey RandFan, Jr... sorry this is off-subject, but have you noticed how many obvious, terrible spelling mistakes there are in your signature footer? Just wondering, because you articulate your arguments so very well without making spelling mistakes to my knowledge, yet even for a 14 yr old, the signature contains several obvious errors.

Just wondering if you noticed that..

 

[King of the Americas]

To "aggle_rithm":

Pardon ME, but an "Aggie" can be seenand noticed as such by their reasoning skills, and not always their cap color.

You didn't strike me as a "Horn".

What did you study?

 

[King of the Americas]

To RandFan:

If my above quote was correct then Bush's actions were not out of line. There was nothing for him to do for a few minutes. He had a staff preparing everything for him and he knew that he had some time so he did what he had gone to the school to do. His mistake was not realizing that there are hateful people in this world that will interpret everything in a negative and cynical light. People like your self.

Odd you complain about being attacked personally yet you have no compunction in attacking the President.

*If your above quote is 'correct'...!? You know a real skeptic would require actual evidence of something before 'believing in it'. What you are suggesting is that we dismiss what is KNOWN, and accept something that you pulled out of your ass and have NO EVIDENCE of... Sorry, I am going to have to pass on that contention, until you DO have some evidence to back up your speculation.

The only thing f*cked up here is a guy who thinks he can turn the world upside down or something to that effect by moving a handful of dirt yet attacks the president. THAT is f*cked up ◊◊◊◊.

*"...or something to that effect."...? Maybe you should know what the hell you are talking about BEFORE you open that trap of your's.

Hold on there, first you say it is "f*cked up" then you say it sounds better. Which is it? Better f*cked up?

*It is 'f*cked up' that while we were under an attack that COULD have been averted, our Commander in Chief was reading a book about a goat to a bunch of kids. I felt it would 'sound better' if they HAD released the story that he was just taking a half hour break, while they were assembling his staff.

Ari does not tell us everything that the President was told. I don't know I don't care. I don't know what the President was told or what the President knew or what contingencies the President had to deal with emergencies. Different leaders have different styles. Bush might have had a perfectly good reason for doing what he did. He might not have had a good reason. It doesn't really matter except it has given ammunition to malicious people with out any objectivity to assail him.

*'I' DO care what my leaders say, do, and are told, as well as when they are told. Moreover, their 'actions' after given counsel are even more so important. I pity you because you are a mindless follower. "It doesn't matter WHAT my leader does, I will always love and support them, no matter WHAT anyone says about them." God help YOU, my friend.

YOU!

*Yes, and I have even written numerous letter noting my support for him.

[sneeze]ahhhhbullshit[/sneeze] This reminds me of a speech by a white supremacist who said that he "didn't hate black people". It made me wonder what else the guy lies about.

*I wish you could understand and even hold two thoughts in your head at the same time. One, I believe the President 'f*cked up' on 9-11, and even could be considered 'abscent' his post of Commander in Chief. Two, I HOPE and pray daily that the President IS able to successfuly protect and defend the United States of America from ALL enemies.

Bush was superb, I am very proud of his actions. On the other hand, I don't know why you would not have a problem analyzing you re a$$ from a hole in the ground.

*My problem is that you have NO evidence of this, other than your misguided perception of who and what he is.

I don't think that there is any proof of that. You are making assumptions. Hindsight is 20/20 and you are playing Monday morning quarterback. Considering the source, you, then I guess it doesn't really matter does it?

*Actually, there IS ample evidence to suggest that the attack ont he Penagon COULD have been averted. "Hal Bidlack" has a mountian of it, but isn't willing or able to share it. Langley Air Force Base in Virginia is less than 10 minutes from the Capitol and the Pentagon via jet fighter. At 9:05 The Commander in Chief was informed that we were under attack. The FAA knew there were no less than 4 planes hijacked and headed off course. Had the President 'acted' against these attacks, instead of taking the kiddie book break, there is no reason to believe that the attacks couldn't be averted.

The world is not full of hateful little minds.

*All that 'I' want is for the scribes to ACCURATELY capture the events of today and yesterday. What President Bush did, why he did it,a nd hwat he knew while he was doing it is PARAMOUNT. That you would characterize those of us who ARE trying to find the truth as 'hateful little minds'...is sad and pityful.

You have made the case that he could have done something. You have not made the case that most reasonable people in his position would have done something different. I'm glad no one will have to ever suffer under your leadership.

*Well, the ONLY thing I could assure my voters is that if and when we DO come under attack, that AS SOON AS I HEAR OF IT, I will without hesistation begin to act to protect us from it. And even if I am reading an autographed copy of the greatest American novel to the graduating class at Harvard, I will put the f*cking book down and get to work.