This is some f*cked up ◊◊◊◊:

[CFLarsen]

Pleasure's all mine. I guess I should have warned you about the futility of trying to educate the King. As you see, he already knows everything.

I'm way ahead of you. I have "battled" with Lil'Albie for some time. Always with the same result: The "King" was severely trounced.

That's why he's the King, right?

Only in his own (fertile, I admit) mind.

If you're interested, I can share a little MP3 of the King's debate skills in action as he tries to turn Howard Stern into an unpaid spokesman. It's quite amusing. PM me your email if you're interested.

Again, I am way ahead of you. Been there, heard that a long time ago.

 

[Jocko]

I'm way ahead of you. I have "battled" with Lil'Albie for some time. Always with the same result: The "King" was severely trounced.

Again, I am way ahead of you. Been there, heard that a long time ago.

I am duly impressed. I just toy with him for the entertainment value, myself, but it it's quite telling that he is now officially an international idiot.

 

[CFLarsen]

I am duly impressed. I just toy with him for the entertainment value, myself, but it it's quite telling that he is now officially an international idiot.

Heavens, no. This guy has never seen anything else of the world than his own nose.

Sad thing is, he will never learn. Has he lived, then?

 

[Crossbow]

Re: To CFLarsen:

Are you and "Jocko" related?

The two of you share behavior patterns.

You just can't seem to keep your eye on the ball, and instead keep pointing out the flaws in the pitcher's uniform.

WHAT am I incorrect about?

Please feel free to make a point, SHUT UP or simply GO AWAY.

KOA, you fool you are incorrect in about everything!

In all of your vast TV watching did you ever study the September 11th timeline? In case you have not, here is a brief excerpt:

0846 - The first plane crashed into the WTC (originally thought to be an accident).
0903 - The second plane crashed into the WTC (definitely showed that the first crash was not an accident).
0943 - The third plane crashed into the Pentagon (clearly showed that the attackers were organized, dedicated, and numerous).
1010 - The fourth plane crashed into rural Pennsylvania (showed that the attackers may not be all that organized after all).

So at best, by the time it was established that there were suicidal terrorists who were using large passenger planes as weapons, these same planes were already hijacked and on the way to their respective targets.

Therefore, about the only outcome that could have been practically changed would have been to shoot down the third plane before it crashed into the Pentagon. While this may seem like a trivial exercise in hindsight, it was right after the worst terrorist attack in US history; no one wanted to risk shooting down the wrong plane; there was less than 40 minutes to locate and identify the correct plane; and at least one fighter jet would have to be positioned to actually destroy this plane. At the very least, this is a very tough task.

Is any of this getting through?

 

[Jocko]

Heavens, no. This guy has never seen anything else of the world than his own nose.

Sad thing is, he will never learn. Has he lived, then?

Actually, by "international idiot" I meant that one may travel from any corner of the United States to Denmark, and still meet someone who will smile knowingly when you say, "Geez, did you see Albert's latest theory? What a friggin' idiot."

He is so consumed with the need to be noticed... to be relevant... to just matter to someone, I imagine that the real world terrifies him something awful. After all, reality doesn't indulge one's delusions, no matter how elaborate.

 

[CFLarsen]

Actually, by "international idiot" I meant that one may travel from any corner of the United States to Denmark, and still meet someone who will smile knowingly when you say, "Geez, did you see Albert's latest theory? What a friggin' idiot."

Ah....I get it. Sadly, I encountered Albie when I was living in the US. Can't say he commands all that much attention outside the US. Not that he commands all that much within the US....

He is so consumed with the need to be noticed... to be relevant... to just matter to someone, I imagine that the real world terrifies him something awful. After all, reality doesn't indulge one's delusions, no matter how elaborate.

Yeah, well...I suppose we should bear with him. He does have his crosses to bear...

 

[Kodiak]

Re: To Kodiak:

I KNOW how a radar works, and I can clearly understand, especially witht he kind of instruments they had...

Great. I was a radar operator in the Air Defense Artillery of the US Army. Exactly how does a radar work, and which type of radar(s) are you referring to?

Range Only?

Continuous Wave Acquisition?

Pulse Acquisition?

Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)?

High Intensity Illumination?

Phased Array?

I think that is more a topic for the Science Section.

I checked the Science Section, KOA, and you haven't posted a response there either.

Feel free to respond either in this thread (JREFfers are very tolerant of minor thread derailments), in the Science Section as you suggested, or even PM me with your response. Of course, you could also admit that you indeed have no working knowledge of radars (if that would happen to be the case)...

 

[RandFanJr.]

Re: To RandFan:

Okay...I 'think' I am starting to feel'ya on this one...

The President, really isn't JUST the Commander in Chief, he is also George W. Bush who always HAS enjoyed a good children's book- the 'person'. And knowing FULL WELL we were under attack, he had 'the other guys' on the job, and there was no need for him to be concerned with the matter, persay.

No, I DON'T KNOW. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that it is plausible that they told him that it would take half an hour for the intelligence to come in so that they could be best prepared to brief him. If this was the case it would have been the same with any president. Of course Bill wouldn't have read the book. He was far too cynical for that. He would have known that some one would have accused him of no acting so he would have pretended like he was doing something.

Like the time he came to California after the earthquake. He rolled up his shirt sleeves. Yeah, like he was really going to lift debris from someone trapped under the ruble.

 

[aggle_rithm]

John Wayne

This whole discussion about Bush's failure to immediately spring to action reminds me of a John Wayne movie, "The Searchers". At one point, a group of men realized that their home town, miles away, was under attack. A young man in the group wanted to ride back immediately, while John Wayne's character said, "No, we have to rest and water the horses." The young man swore at him and rode off.

The next day, of course, the young man was staggering across the plain, carrying his saddle. His horse had died. John Wayne blew past him on his horse.

The moral of this story...well, you can figure it out.

 

[King of the Americas]

Several respones:

To Kodiak:

Why are you busting my balls about this Radar crap? I am really not all that interested in discussing my knowledge or lack thereof of how Radar works. YOU claim to be the knower of all that is Radar, GOOD FOR YOU. But the 'function' of Radar, really has very little to do with what the President did or didn't do on 9-11. Moreover MY knowledge about the topic has even less to do with the issue at hand.

So, if you aren't interested in discussing the President and 9-11, then I really have nothing for you at this time.

Sorry.

---

To Crossbow:

So, shooting down the 3rd plane was too hard, because it was too difficult to figure out 'which' plane was off course...?
I guess we may never know huh? BECAUSE the President was reading a freaking book about a goat, while he COULD have been trying to figure out which plane WAS threatening to attack.

We are just going to have to wait for "Hal" to answer my 3 questions from page 3 before we can figure out if immediate action could have spared the Pentagon.

Besides, I am PRETTY sure that the FAA and or NORAD could have 'figured out' which planes were and weren't hijacked- off course, refusing communication attempts, with their homing beacon turned off.

---

To Aggie:

Okay, so now you are comparing a western movie to the actions of a 21st century President...

Look, I am NOT saying he needed to take immediate action to order the shooting down of everything in the sky. But, to NOT begin getting information and asking questions...

In the situation you provided it would be like a guy coming up to John Wayne's character and saying I have urgent news from the town, "The bad guys have attacked, and..."

Wayne interupts, "Hold on there cow-poke, I need a moment to absorb that whilst I finish this little dittie. Why don't you take a few minutes to configure your statement, while I finish entertaining these fine people."

My contention is that it is NOT 'Okay' to read a book about a goat with 16 kids, when you are the Commander in Chief AND we are under attack.

There are questions he should have been asking, so that people COULD have given him the information he needed to make an accurate decision.

Please tell me how the problem would have been made worse by having the President excuse himself to begin ACTING like the Commander in Chief. What harm could have been caused by having him asking questions about what was going on, and getting briefed on who was doing what where, when, and how???

---

To Hal:

I am still waiting for you to answer the 3 questions I posed yesterday. Are you still trying to find the answers to these questions? I thought you WERE the guy who knew all this stuff?

 

[Kodiak]

Re: Several respones:

To Kodiak:

Why are you busting my balls about this Radar crap? I am really not all that interested in discussing my knowledge or lack thereof of how Radar works. YOU claim to be the knower of all that is Radar, GOOD FOR YOU. But the 'function' of Radar, really has very little to do with what the President did or didn't do on 9-11. Moreover MY knowledge about the topic has even less to do with the issue at hand.

So, if you aren't interested in discussing the President and 9-11, then I really have nothing for you at this time.

Sorry.

Your hypocricy knows no bounds, KOA.

Your manic skepticism and conspiratorial attitude toward the President and 9-11 is completely contradicted by your unwillingness to back up a claim you made concerning your ability to evaluate and understand how air traffic radar influenced what happened on 9-11 and how the President reacted that morning.

How sad...

 

[King of the Americas]

To Kodiak:

PLEASE tell me how discussing the differences, and spects of "Exactly how does a radar work, and which type of radar(s) are you referring to?

Range Only?

Continuous Wave Acquisition?

Pulse Acquisition?

Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)?

High Intensity Illumination?

Phased Array?"

...PLEASE connect the dots for me on this. Moreover, please tell me how my avoiding this issue is hypocritical?

I am trying to address the President's inaction, and you want to talk about technical systems!?

Is 'Radar' the central hub factor in this discussion!? And if so, how?

 

[CFLarsen]

Re: To Kodiak:

Kodiak, allow me to step in with the facts. You can take it from there.

It JUST SO HAPPENS, that my fianee's father was one of the radar tower operators out there. HE says that they picked up on a radar signal, but that they summized that it MUST have been a radar glitch because the signal was too big to be an attack of that size.

The signal was actually interpretted as a 'large flock of birds', and thus the alarmed was not sounded, until one of these birds laid an egg.

Crazy, huh?

And later:

I KNOW how a radar works, and I can clearly understand, especially witht he kind of instruments they had, how such a mistake could have been made. However, 'I' wouldn't say it was their fault. Failing to hail the call of duty...well that is anothing thing all together.

At least those men were at their posts to see and try to interpret the signal they were getting. THEY were actively seeking MORE information about the sighting, NOT ignoring what they had as it weren't important.

Kodiak's question is highly relevant. The radar is the only time you have (relatively) direct access to any kind of information. That's why it's central to your whole argument.

 

[Jocko]

Not to interrupt the action, but a while back I predicted that KOA was about 3 posts away from packing it in. We've had two increasingly strident posts since.

I predict that he will hold his breath till he turns blue with his next post. Would that qualify my for Randi's mil if I'm right?

 

[CFLarsen]

Not to interrupt the action, but a while back I predicted that KOA was about 3 posts away from packing it in. We've had two increasingly strident posts since.

I predict that he will hold his breath till he turns blue with his next post. Would that qualify my for Randi's mil if I'm right?

No, that event you are describing is a natural law.

 

[King of the Americas]

To CFLarsen:

"The radar is the only time you have (relatively) direct access to any kind of information."

*Could you rephrase this statement, because I don't understand it as is.

 

[Crossbow]

Re: Several respones:

..

To Crossbow:

So, shooting down the 3rd plane was too hard, because it was too difficult to figure out 'which' plane was off course...?
I guess we may never know huh? BECAUSE the President was reading a freaking book about a goat, while he COULD have been trying to figure out which plane WAS threatening to attack.

We are just going to have to wait for "Hal" to answer my 3 questions from page 3 before we can figure out if immediate action could have spared the Pentagon.

Besides, I am PRETTY sure that the FAA and or NORAD could have 'figured out' which planes were and weren't hijacked- off course, refusing communication attempts, with their homing beacon turned off.

---

...

Ugh KOA, you idiotic boob the president cannot just go around shooting down airplanes that he cannot communicate with! That is what the Soviets did with Flight 007 and look at what happened there!

The plane may be having radio problems, the plane may be having some sort of emergency, the pilots may be distracted dealing with a situation on the plane, or any number of other things. He was a pilot after all, so he does know about the problems involved with in-flight communications.

Simply being out of communication with an airplane does not mean that airplane has been hijacked by suicidal terrorists.

Have you ever flown a plane? Bush has, I have quite a few times, I doubt that you ever have so I expect that you know even less about avaition than you do about Radar.

 

[King of the Americas]

To Crossbow:

Listen carefully...

There are a number of criteria that one must address upon considering whether or not a plane is hijacked. ONE of which is 'not responding to communication attempts'.

AGAIN, I am NOT saying the President should have ordered ANY plane(s) be shot down.

In fact, the ONLY thing I am saying is that he should have put down the f*cking kiddie book, and began asking some serious questions like:

"Who do we think is attacking us?"

"How many other planes are severely off course, with their tracking beacons off, AND refusing communication attempts?

"How many fighters do we have in the air, right now, that can investigate the planes that ARE off course?"

In all sincereity, you are doing a pretty crappy job of addressing the issue of the President's inaction.

 

[ssibal]

Re: Several respones:

So, shooting down the 3rd plane was too hard, because it was too difficult to figure out 'which' plane was off course...?
I guess we may never know huh? BECAUSE the President was reading a freaking book about a goat, while he COULD have been trying to figure out which plane WAS threatening to attack.

Since when was it the president's job to figure out which plane out of thousands is threatening to attack?

 

[King of the Americas]

To ssibal:

As far as 'I' know, ONLY the POTUS can order the shooting down of a civilian craft, so while the JCS and others might counsel the President, it is ultimately up to him 'which' plane gets shot down.

AGAIN, he didn't get anywhere NEAR making this decision when he needed to. While 2 planes were headed toward their targets, he wasn't getting briefed upon how many others threats there were. He wasn't asking any questions of a serious nature, and he wasn't in contact with anyone who COULD have done anything to react to these attacks. He was reading a kiddie book about a freaking goat!