This is some f*cked up ◊◊◊◊:

[King of the Americas]

To RandFan:

Okay...I 'think' I am starting to feel'ya on this one...

The President, really isn't JUST the Commander in Chief, he is also George W. Bush who always HAS enjoyed a good children's book- the 'person'. And knowing FULL WELL we were under attack, he had 'the other guys' on the job, and there was no need for him to be concerned with the matter, persay.

W O W.

Now THAT is exactly what I said in the first place. G.W. was doing exactly what he does BEST when the poop hit the fan:

"Reading to and or with people who didn't mind if he stumbled over a word or two."

 

[King of the Americas]

To Kodiak:

I think that is more a topic for the Science Section.

 

[CFLarsen]

*What I am saying is 30 minutes is a BUNCH of time 'not' to be getting briefed on how many other planes were in the air, and off course while refusing communication attempts...

It's a BUNCH of time in a movie. Not in real life.

How fast CAN we get the right information into the right hands to make the right call...?

It can go fast, and it can go not so fast. There are, as you say, many variables, but you seem to believe that everything should have gone as smooth as in those movies you clearly have seen too many off.

Lots of varibles go into that answer, but given that the Agent had his radio turned off... I really don't know how to accurately characterize what the President did or DIDN'T do that day. All that I CAN say is that he wasn't getting any information, and wasn't asking any imporant questions.

"That day", the president got a lot of information and was asking enough questions to give a lot of orders.

He was reading a story about a goat...

Could you please describe the scenario that - according to you - should have happened, in those 30 minutes? Who should have called who, asking what, ordering what?

 

[King of the Americas]

To Hal:

NOW HOLD UP...

Let's get specific, here.

What exactly am I way off base on?

But wait, if YOU are the specialist here I have some specific questions for you:

---

1.) What is the nearest military airport to the Capitol?

2.) What is the top speed of an F-16 & F-15, after they ARE in the air?

3.) Who can give an order for a fighter to take down a civilian plane?

---

Now you got problems with what I said, then 'exactly' what is it you protest to?

Vague statements like your's are useless here.

 

[CFLarsen]

KOA,

Could you please describe the scenario that - according to you - should have happened, in those 30 minutes? Who should have called who, asking what, ordering what?

 

[Psiload]

KotA wrote:

*What I am saying is 30 minutes is a BUNCH of time 'not' to be getting briefed on how many other planes were in the air, and off course while refusing communication attempts...

Yes, but thirty minutes is still not enough time for the President to have done anything that would have significantly effected the outcome of the events of 9/11, right? So, in essence, all you're doing is monday morning quarterbacking a moot point.

How fast CAN we get the right information into the right hands to make the right call...? Lots of varibles go into that answer, but given that the Agent had his radio turned off...

...we have one more irrelevant detail. There, I'll finish that thought for you.

I really don't know how to accurately characterize what the President did or DIDN'T do that day. All that I CAN say is that he wasn't getting any information, and wasn't asking any imporant questions.

Your inability to accurately characterize has never concerned you before, why let it stop you know?

He was reading a story about a goat...

That seems a pretty rational and constructive course of action given how the rest of the country at large seeemed to be busily carrying out the policy of:

When in danger, or in doubt.
Run in circles, scream and shout

 

[King of the Americas]

To CFLarsen:

Good question, and to answer you as specifically as I know how:

WHEN 'I' heard a CNN news reporter say, "We seem to be under attack.", I started to ask questions myself like "Holy ◊◊◊◊, who the hell is behind this!?" "What else are they going to hit?" "How many OTHER planes are in the air and off course!?!?"

I am just a normal guy watching the news, so I don't HAVE access to the kind of outlets that can answer these questions. However, I think that 'someone' should, and if that is anyone it should be our Commander in Chief.

IF 'I' were told, as the Commander in Chief, that we were "...under attack.", I would immediately put that hat on and starting thinking and acting like I was the Commander in Chief.

I say that by NOT doing so, and instead taking that time to read a book about a goat...well, I say that is some f*cked up ◊◊◊◊.

I mean is that really what we want President Bush doing while we are under attack from an unknown source?

Actually...THAT's the punchline. He WAS doing what he did best, asking the questions he was good at answering-reading and talking about a book about a goat. This skit would get a LOTTA laughs if it were on Saturday Night Live. The problem is, that is wasn't...

This is how it really happened, and this is really what the President was doing while the 9-11 attacks transpired, and I am not so sure it was a 'good thing'.

 

[ssibal]

Re: To RandFan:

And knowing FULL WELL we were under attack, he had 'the other guys' on the job, and there was no need for him to be concerned with the matter, persay.

Where did you get the idea that the president knew fully well that we were under attack? All he KNEW was that two planes had crashed into two buildings.

 

[King of the Americas]

To Psiload:

We'll have to wait for "Hal" to answer my questions before we actually SEE 'if' any of the attack on 9-11 could have been averted.

He has already noted that the President doesn't have to be consulted to 'scramble jets'. And in fact, that this is a pretty common thing done rather quickly by people much lower in the chain of command.

30 minutes...a half a hour.

This isn't Star Trek, when the Commander sends a direct command, and all the starships attack the perfect target with one shot. However, I don't think this is the wild west, when we gotta wait for the pony express to deliver a hand written note.

I think first we have to define what we are capable of, and drilled on daily. Then ask who was in the air at the time of the 'known' attack, and how 'fast' they could have arrived at the scene? THEN ask who cold have given what order to whom, after asking what questions...

30 minutes to ask questions, and get answers...that were instead spent in the company of children.

 

[King of the Americas]

To ssible:

You took that out of context.

Someone else floated the idea that 'maybe' the President DID know about what was happening, and that he had them getting together a group to full catch him up on realtime events, in 30 mintues or so.

'I' do NOT contend that the President was fully aware of anything.

 

[CFLarsen]

KOA,

You really, really need to realize that you do not run this planet. And you also really, really need to start learning about how the world works.

First step could be to actually listen to those who know more than you. I don't suppose we'll hear much from you in the next hundred years or so.

You are seriously suffering from illusions of grandeur. You still refer to yourself as "*I*". WTF is that all about?

Get over yourself.

 

[ssibal]

Re: To ssible:

You took that out of context.

Someone else floated the idea that 'maybe' the President DID know about what was happening, and that he had them getting together a group to full catch him up on realtime events, in 30 mintues or so.

'I' do NOT contend that the President was fully aware of anything.

But you have been claiming throughout this thread that he was aware the U.S. was under attack and did nothing. Why criticize him if you do not know if he was fully aware of anything?

 

[King of the Americas]

To CFLarsen:

I did say 'fully aware'...

Moreover, that was supposed to be a punchline. It IS clear that the President was informed/TOLD outright that we were under attack shortly after 9:00 am. And after he found this out he read a book about a goat.

So was he fully aware of anything...?

Man, I don't know, but this sure smells foul to me, any way you slice it.

 

[CFLarsen]

Re: To CFLarsen:

Man, I don't know

You got that right.

but this sure smells foul to me, any way you slice it.

In that case, you have not listened to one single thing people have said here.

 

[King of the Americas]

To CFLarsen:

Are you and "Jocko" related?

The two of you share behavior patterns.

You just can't seem to keep your eye on the ball, and instead keep pointing out the flaws in the pitcher's uniform.

WHAT am I incorrect about?

Please feel free to make a point, SHUT UP or simply GO AWAY.

 

[CFLarsen]

Re: To CFLarsen:

Are you and "Jocko" related?

I have no idea who "Jocko" is.

WHAT am I incorrect about?

Oh, brother....I haven't got THAT much time!!

Please feel free to make a point, SHUT UP or simply GO AWAY.

My point - which I have been making quite many times now - is that you are not capable of realizing that you do not run the planet, that you do not have any idea of how to distinguish facts from fiction, and that you are a poor listener and a very poor learner. You are simply convinced that you are right, so why bother listen and learn?

I will not "go away", nor will I "shut up". You have to realize that you do not run the pl...oh, wait. I said that already.

 

[jj]

KoA,

I'll try one more time: the Air Force does not need to get a phone call from POTUS to launch fighters. I won't go into details, of course, but I assure you your entire basic premise is *wrong.* You have 'facts' that you yourself admited came from the Discovery Channel.

As a career AF officer, and as a former temp staffer on the NSC, I assure you, you are completely, fundamentally, and factually way off base.

Hal, to the extent you CAN answer the question, what authority does exist in terms of shooting down an airliner that is bearing down on the Pentagon, White House, Capitol Building, etc, assuming that the intent can be at least guessed, although not proven.

I realize you may not be able to answer the question.

 

[Jocko]

Re: To CFLarsen:

Are you and "Jocko" related?

Hey, leave me out of this. I ducked this BS thread a while ago.

The two of you share behavior patterns.

I can name two: reliance on our own education & common sense, and a profound distaste for your affected regal crap.

I'm in good company, it seems.

You just can't seem to keep your eye on the ball, and instead keep pointing out the flaws in the pitcher's uniform.

This sounds like we're about three posts away from you taking your little conspiracy ball and going home in a huff. Not a moment too soon, either.

WHAT am I incorrect about?

Would you like that list in order of significance, or alphabetically? Hell, if you really wanted an answer to that question you would have read some of the hundred-odd posts that shoot your ridiculous theory full of holes.

A shorter subject is what you're correct about.

Please feel free to make a point, SHUT UP or simply GO AWAY.

Call the royal executioner! The King is displeased with the court! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

You always bring a smile to my face, King. I hope all those people who requested the MP3 of you on the Stern show are abel to take you more in cotext now.

After all, putting a voice to your idiocy is like the cherry on a moron sundae.

 

[CFLarsen]

Oh.

Hi, Jocko. Nice to meet you!

 

[Jocko]

Oh.

Hi, Jocko. Nice to meet you!

Pleasure's all mine. I guess I should have warned you about the futility of trying to educate the King. As you see, he already knows everything.

That's why he's the King, right?

If you're interested, I can share a little MP3 of the King's debate skills in action as he tries to turn Howard Stern into an unpaid spokesman. It's quite amusing. PM me your email if you're interested.