"This is a Christian country"

[Garrette]

Do you really equate the United States with the United States government?

I think there may be a confusion of terms.

In my experience, most citizens of the U.S. use "government" in the same sense that most citizens of Europe use "the state."

We (in the U.S.) use "political party, e.g., Republican Administration" in the same sense that Europeans use "government."

Could be wrong, though.

 

[Luke T.]

Like it or not, this is a Christian country. It is nearly impossible to get elected without making some kind of statement endorsing the Christian god. Just look at all the current Presidential candidates in both parties.

From Senator Obama's web site:

Senator Obama spoke at the Call to Renewal Conference sponsored by Sojourners earlier to day. He spoke of the role of religion in politics.

"This is why, if we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse.

Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another; when we shy away from religious venues and religious broadcasts because we assume that we will be unwelcome - others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.

In other words, if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwell's and Pat Robertson's will continue to hold sway."

http://obama.senate.gov/podcast/060628-call_to_renewal_keynote/index.html

Senator Hillary Clinton:

On the eve of the presidential inauguration, US Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton last night embraced an issue some pundits say helped seal a second term for George W. Bush: acceptance of the role of faith in addressing social ills.

In a speech at a fund-raising dinner for a Boston-based organization that promotes faith-based solutions to social problems, Clinton said there has been a "false division" between faith-based approaches to social problems and respect for the separation of church of state.

Sen. Clinton urges use of faith-based initiatives

Mitt Romney is a Mormon, which is actually seen as a problem for him because he's not the right kind of Christian.

The only one who doesn't appear to wear religion on his sleeve is Giuliani, although even he has been attempting to "reach out" to the religious right lately in an obvious pander for votes.

 

[Garrette]

Like it or not, this is a Christian country.

I agree in a general sense. I take offense when someone insists it was founded on Christian principles or insists that Christian principles (however undefined) must be the basis of legislation.

It is nearly impossible to get elected without making some kind of statement endorsing the Christian god. Just look at all the current Presidential candidates in both parties.

From Senator Obama's web site:


http://obama.senate.gov/podcast/060628-call_to_renewal_keynote/index.html

Senator Hillary Clinton:


Sen. Clinton urges use of faith-based initiatives

Mitt Romney is a Mormon, which is actually seen as a problem for him because he's not the right kind of Christian.

The only one who doesn't appear to wear religion on his sleeve is Giuliani, although even he has been attempting to "reach out" to the religious right lately in an obvious pander for votes.

Were I to run for office, I would neither hide nor publicize my atheism, though I suspect it would come out. Regardless, I would reach out to the religious community simply because they represent a group of folks sharing similar beliefs. Likewise, I would reach out to people ideologically opposed to me.

"Reaching out," however, does not necessarily entail pandering.

So I suppose I'd never get elected.

 

[hgc]

I agree in a general sense. I take offense when someone insists it was founded on Christian principles or insists that Christian principles (however undefined) must be the basis of legislation.

Were I to run for office, I would neither hide nor publicize my atheism, though I suspect it would come out. Regardless, I would reach out to the religious community simply because they represent a group of folks sharing similar beliefs. Likewise, I would reach out to people ideologically opposed to me.

"Reaching out," however, does not necessarily entail pandering.

So I suppose I'd never get elected.

If your atheism were to come out, you'd be dead in the water. That is unless you were to be running in a district covering Cambridge and Brookline, MA or where I live, Manhattan's upper west side.

But do try. I think the more atheists make a public issue of our 2nd rate citizenship, the more likely we'll be able to affect a change of attitudes.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Even IF the country was founded to be Christian, that certainly doesn't mean it should be today. Secularism is what has allowed the USA to become a superpower. Theocracy will be it's demise.

If the US turns into a theocracy, I will bet the over on your prediction.

At present, its economic demise is being accelerated by a sell out that began in the 1980's. America's strength has been tied to its economic and trading power for about 200 years. Undermine that, and America weakens.. It is economic power that underwrites most of what the US does in the, for good and ill.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Christianity is the major religion in the US. By far.

That observation is the equivalent of saying that a mosaic tile worked picture of varied colors is predominantly ceramic.
ETA

Mitt Romney is a Mormon, which is actually seen as a problem for him because he's not the right kind of Christian

.
A key distinction too often ignored, and hidden, in such discussions, is the character of Christians in America, which can only be described accurately as "varied."

The same would be true of the character of Jews in America: a varied group under a generalized descriptive.

The same of Atheists in America: a varied group under a generalized descriptive.

On the other hand, all Danes are in fact pompous popnijays, based on the single data point of CF Larsen.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

How about predominately Atheist? It would be much more difficult for a President to claim that he was receiving messages from a "higher source," when sending us to war.

The electorate being Atheist, or otherwise, has little to do with political utterances by office holders.
Some random utterances that had little to do with the electorate:

"I have lusted in my heart." James Earl Carter
"In five minutes, we bomb Russia." Ronald Reagan
"I hate war, Elanor hates war, and my dog Falla hates war." FDR, a president who worked for over a year to get semi-isolationist America into a war on the side of the UK

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

If your atheism were to come out, you'd be dead in the water. That is unless you were to be running in a district covering Cambridge and Brookline, MA or where I live, Manhattan's upper west side.

But do try. I think the more atheists make a public issue of our 2nd rate citizenship, the more likely we'll be able to affect a change of attitudes.

Please enlighten me on how you are not afforded equal protection under the law.

Cult of the Victim for too much, Alex.

DR

 

[EGarrett]

Out of interest, would you rather the USA be predominantly christian like it is or predominantly muslim.

My reply to this is enough for a completely separate thread.

 

[hgc]

Please enlighten me on how you are not afforded equal protection under the law.

Cult of the Victim for too much, Alex.

DR

I refer to the case of the atheist family that was hounded out of town out in the hinterlands recently -- I don't remember where it occurred, but you know what I'm talking about -- and similar instances. I, personally, don't have a problem, living where I do, but many atheists in this country hide their beliefs (lack thereof) in order to keep their jobs and to keep their children from being ostracized.

Add to that the recent polls showing what a low percentage of Americans would vote for an atheist presidential candidate, and you get the idea. Discrimination against atheists need not be on the books in order to exist.

At least my victimhood has facts to illuminate it, unlike Christian victims!

 

[Darth Rotor]

I refer to the case of the atheist family that was hounded out of town out in the hinterlands recently -- I don't remember where it occurred, but you know what I'm talking about -- and similar instances. I, personally, don't have a problem, living where I do, but many atheists in this country hide their beliefs (lack thereof) in order to keep their jobs and to keep their children from being ostracized.

Add to that the recent polls showing what a low percentage of Americans would vote for an atheist presidential candidate, and you get the idea. Discrimination against atheists need not be on the books in order to exist.

At least my victimhood has facts to illuminate it, unlike Christian victims!

Tell it to the Copts, tell it to Mitt Romney, and tell it to this young lady.

Do you recall which banned book Farenheit 451 starred, among the subversives in Bradbury's dystopian tale?

DR

 

[hgc]

Tell it to the Copts, tell it to Mitt Romney, and tell it to this young lady.

Do you recall which banned book Farenheit 451 starred, among the subversives in Bradbury's dystopian tale?

DR

The Copts? How many are there? Do they get a hard time? As for the Mormons, good point. At the risk of playing a game of victimhood one-upmanship, I think that atheists are more despised here than people of any kind of faith -- except possibly Wiccans. I'd worry about the Druids too, if there were any.

Love that book and Truffault's movie adaptation too. Which book was it? I can't remember.

There's another thread about the bible-reading in the cafeteria case. Since the accused vice principal wasn't even present in school that day, there's some doubt about the validity of the claim.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The Copts? How many are there? Do they get a hard time? As for the Mormons, good point. At the risk of playing a game of victimhood one-upmanship, I think that atheists are more despised here than people of any kind of faith -- except possibly Wiccans. I'd worry about the Druids too, if there were any.

I expect that what concerns you is highly dependent on locale, hgc.

Where is "here?" Certainly not in JREF discussion circles. It is the stereotyped, strawman, mythically characterized Christians who are more often despised and ridiculed than not, or so has been my observation. A mild prerusal of discussion at R & P will confirm that institutional bias.

It seems that you are making a "general from specific" presumption that amounts to hyperbole. As to Druids, or perhaps rectly neo Druids since that line of belief had to be resurrected, I used to post on a message board and converse with a guy whose wife and he renewed their vows, in a Wiccan ceremony (or maybe it was Druidic, I forget that detail) at Stonehenge! I think that's cool. He related that it was profoundly meaningful for them and their friends, but the process to get approval to use that site for the ceremony was a bit burdensome.

Love that book and Truffault's movie adaptation too. Which book was it? I can't remember.

The Bible, though it wasn't the only book treasured by the subsersives in the story.

DR

 

[hgc]

I expect that what concerns you is highly dependent on locale, hgc.

Where is "here?" Certainly not in JREF discussion circles. It is the stereotyped, strawman, mythically characterized Christians who are more often despised and ridiculed than not, or so has been my observation. A mild prerusal of discussion at R & P will confirm that institutional bias.

It seems that you are making a "general from specific" presumption that amounts to hyperbole. As to Druids, or perhaps rectly neo Druids since that line of belief had to be resurrected, I used to post on a message board and converse with a guy whose wife and he renewed their vows, in a Wiccan ceremony (or maybe it was Druidic, I forget that detail) at Stonehenge! I think that's cool. He related that it was profoundly meaningful for them and their friends, but the process to get approval to use that site for the ceremony was a bit burdensome.

Good lord, man! Of course it depends on locale! What do you think I've been saying. By "here," I mean the U.S. of A. The particular locale I pointed to was NYC, where atheists do alright. You could certainly say the same about the JREF forum. Who would be surprised by that? It's JREF. (Incidentally, how someone is treated on Internet forums are not nearly as vital as how they are treated in physical communities.)

I generalize based on statistics. My favorite statistic at the moment is the recent national poll asking, "If your party nominated a well-qualified Candidate for WH '08 who was ___, would you vote for that person?" It's not a pretty picture for atheists.

Yes No
Catholic 95% 4%
Black 94 5
Jewish 92 7
A woman 88 11
Hispanic 87 12
Mormon 72 24
Married for third time 67 30
72 years old 57 42
A homosexual 55 43
An atheist 45 53

The Bible, though it wasn't the only book treasured by the subsersives in the story.

DR

Hmmm. Figures prominently? I'll have to re-read.


ETA: What the f__ is going on with the forum software removing embedded spaces?!? You can't read my poll results!

 

[ponderingturtle]

Tell it to the Copts, tell it to Mitt Romney, and tell it to this young lady.

Ah the young lady who gets told to not read the bible by people who are not even at work that day. That is real discrimination having the vice principle come in special just to stop her from reading the bible.

That is just a case where the christians are trying to prove that they are the oppressed majority. It really bugs many of them that they can not impose their views on others and so they make crap like that up.

 

[Luke T.]

I refer to the case of the atheist family that was hounded out of town out in the hinterlands recently -- I don't remember where it occurred, but you know what I'm talking about

Darth might know what you are talking about, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Luke T.]

The Bible, though it wasn't the only book treasured by the subsersives in the story.

DR

I love that book. And in the movie, there is a funny moment when various people are introducing themselves to Montag by the names of books, instead of their given names. Each person has memorized a book and so identifies themself as the book they have memorized. One character shakes Montag's hand and introduces himself as "Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury" and continues on his way.

It's been, what, over 30 years since I've seen that movie, and I still remember that.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Out of interest, would you rather the USA be predominantly christian like it is or predominantly muslim.

Why only two choices? I'd rather have the USA predominately atheist without any superstitions.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Want to see something scarey - watch the Borat movie. More particularly, the part where goes into one of those big charismatic churches. One of the speakers is a congressman - I forget who - but it is pretty spooky.

Another speaker is a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. It's very scary to see such a man of power in a congregation that is creationist.

 

[hgc]

Darth might know what you are talking about, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

Sorry. Here's a thread about it -- the whole CNN thing with Paula Zahn and that Jew-who-genuflects-before-her-Christian-overlords, Debbie Shlussel.

I forget that not everyone is as invested in atheist victimhood as I am.