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Think like a Fundy.

espritch

Graduate Poster
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
1,333
So you want to be a fundy? Then you better learn the fundymentals.

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/fundy.html

We need to start a new game: Score the Fundy. The rules would be simple. We create a list of standard fundy arguments and logical fallacies with point values (1 point for "Prove God does not exist!", 3 POINTS FOR ALL CAPS, etc.) and each time a fundy posts, we can score it based on the number of techniques identified from the list. The highest scoring post for the month would receive our coveted Uber-Fundy award. :)
 
Did someone say FALLACY??!!!!!!!

Trite Fallacies--1 Point

Argumentum ad hominem
Argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam--raising irrelevant arguments.
Argumentum ad captandum vulgus--cooler way to argue to the masses.
Poisoning the Well--usually goes with argumentum ad hominem
Argumentum ad misericordiam--appeal to pity--"you made the Baby Jesus cry!"
Tu quoque--you (did it) too--"two wrongs don't make a right."
Non sequitur--it does not follow, irrelevant argument.


Cooler Fallacies--2 Points

Argumentum ad baclum--appeal to force
Ipse dixit--appeal to authority--"he himself said"
Cui bono?--"to what good"--the "So what?" argument.

Special Randi Fallacy--3 Points--devised by Moi and . . . damn! Forgot! Someone PM me and fess up so I can give credit!

Argumentum ad non verus Caledoni--No True Scotsman!!

--J.D.
 
Argumentum ad Troll - the more I repeat myself and post the same fallacious claptrap across multiple threads the more true it becomes.
 
Since it is a Randi Site Official new fallacy, it will get 3 Points.

To keep the Latin--"troll" is really a "fisherman" or one who tries to capture prey of some type--in internet usage.

Argumentum ad piscatorem--to accuse someone of being a troll--which is an argumentum ad hominem but, hey, it forces them to work.

Argumentum ad everriculum--"argument to the fishing net" . . . to direct arguments that capture "fish" or prey--posters.

--J.D.
 
My contribution:

Argumentum ad sonitus:
(Argument of noise)

Any single human can produce more incoherent noise than any army of other humans can effectively debunk.


This tactic is especially useful when inventing new crackpot snake oil healing scams, and selling through religions.

For instance, it only takes one a second to think up: "Sprinkling powdered cat fur over a cancerous lesion helps!", and only minutes to get deperate, sick people to pay you to do it. It will take years and piles of money for doctors and scientists to study the 'treatment' you just have invented for free while wondering what to do with the swept-up cat sheddings, even if any of them get around to it immediately, to debunk it.

Spending a few hours thinking up a very elaborate so-called 'treatments' that could be done wrong in a lot of different ways can equate to a lifetime of good income.

Also used frequently in debates, as pointed out in the fundy article in the opening post.

Any single person can make more garbage than an army of other people can effectively discredit. Any army of such people can produce more noise than whole worlds could discredit.
 
Like all good ideas, some one else thought of if first, the game is “Cretigo”, first saw it in the talk origins site.

I have unashamedly plagiarised this from the talk origins board, (there are a few minor changes for clarity only, and shorted a little, I apologise to the author, ‘prof weird’ in advance).

After a few years in the creationism vs evolution debates, I noticed that there was a core of commonly used creationist 'arguments'. So, I compiled them and turned them into a game - Cretigo. It is played like Bingo, except the various creationist claims represent the letters and numbers. There are 28 arguments arranged into a 5 x 5 board (not all arguments are used on a single board), with the centre square free.

While debating a creationist, simply mark off the claims as they are used - the object is to get 5 in a row

Here are the claims :

1 God of the Gaps/Unsolved Mystery. Assumes that if science cannot presently explain something, there is no natural explanation.

2 Personal Incredulity. Assumes that their inability to comprehend or understand how something could have occurred naturally is proof that it did not.

3 Post-It Note God/Morris Effect. Gives a supernatural deity credit for a natural event, eg:
"well, god CUDDA done it that way !", or
"There is no observational fact imaginable that cannot, one way or another, be made to fit the creation model." - Henry Morris

4 Scriptural Assault. Use of bible verses as 'evidence'. Usually either as threats, or bribes. Also includes such gems as:
a "Jesus Loves You"
b "I'll Pray For You"
c "One day you will have to answer to Jesus Christ Himself, and then it won't be so funny when he throws your unrepentant soul into Hell !"
d "One day, when you're burning in Hell, you'll remember this conversation, and that I warned you !"

5 Discredited 'evidences', Hoaxes and errors. Otherwise known as PRATTs (Points Refuted A Thousand Times). Includes such things as the moon dust argument, the vapour canopy 'hypothesis', and the decaying c-factor hypothesis. These 'evidences' have been refuted (see Talk Origins for them), but creationists keep using them anyway.

Things like Nebraska Man, Piltdown Man, and the Lady Hope Story fit also fit in here. Somehow the FACT that scientists were the ones that figured out these were mistakes or hoaxes is always missed by creationists. Science works by correcting its errors, so hoaxes and frauds usually don't last very long.

6 Out of Context Quotes. THE classic creationist technique. If, at any time you see them claim that an 'evolutionist' says that evolution is false, you can be pretty certain the words have been carefully edited (like Darwin's 'Eye Quote', his 'Transitional forms should be everywhere' quote ... ).

7 2nd Law of Thermodynamics Arguments. The idea that evolution somehow violates this inviolable law of nature. In truth, it doesn't (in fact, life itself works in accordance to this law). Assumes that organisation/complexity cannot form unless directed by some sort of program (false).

8 (Mis)Information Theory. A relatively recent argument, it claims things like 'gains of genetic information are impossible', or 'mutations have never been observed'. Both statements are, of course, false.

9 Absolutism/Burden of Proof. Assumes:
a) if you are not 100% certain about how something happened, then you don't have a clue about how it happened, or
b) anything not proven true is automatically false (or, anything not proven false is automatically true).

10 Denial = Refutation/ex cathedra arguments/Zepellin Ego. The first two assume that just because the creationist has stated something, it is automatically true without the requirement for supporting evidence. ('Your statement is false. Now that I have refuted you, you MUST accept that my ideas are correct !')

Zepellin Ego - when opponent's ego is huge, bloated, full of gas, and explodes into flame with the least provocation (tends to go along with #17 - see below).

11 Semantic Games. Opponent will expect you to conform to HIS definition of words, not their REAL, currently accepted definitions. Example: claims that evolution MUST be only single point mutations (as in the Modern Synthesis – 1942 to 1982).

Also when evidence is redefined out of existence (ie, the invention of the 'dichotomy' between 'apparent' specified complexity vs 'real' specified complexity when it was demonstrated that a computer program using mutation/selection could produce a sentence exhibiting specified complexity. Sadly, without knowing the history of a process, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell the 'difference' between 'real' and 'apparent' specified complexity.)

12 Number Games. Use of carefully selected growth rates to 'show' that the entire Earth's population could've been generated by 4 couples a few thousand years ago. Also the One Sided Equation – most processes on Earth are in equilibrium (there are just as many factors increasing something as decreasing it). A One Sided Equation ignores one or the other side of the equation - seen in the Helium escape argument, or erosion/build up of sediment type of arguments for a young Earth.

13 Transitional Form Complaints. They either claim:
a) “there are no transitional forms !!” (false), or
b) ”Those fossils are the wrong kind of transitional forms, and so aren't real transitionals !!”

The “fossils are fully formed whatevers” type arguments are included in here as well.

14 Conspiracy Theories. Two major types:
a) "All scientists/evolutionists KNOW that evolution is false, but they hide/distort the evidence to get people away from God !".
b) "Every field of science kneels before the altar of Evolutionary Theory !" - geologists must check with evolutionists so they know how old to say the Earth is, for example.

15 Cartoon Theory of Evolution. Evolution is just the study and explanation of how living things change over time. The Cartoon Theory of Evolution includes Cosmogony (origin of the universe), Nucleosynthesis (origin of substances heavier than hydrogen), Abiogenesis (origin of life from organic compounds) - from the Chick Tract 'Big Daddy" most likely.

16 Argument from Weak/Faulty Analogy. Hearkens back to Paley's Watchmaker analogy (the "irreducibly complex systems" of Behe is the modern incarnation of this). Assumes that if two things have at least one thing in common, they have all things in common (designed objects are complex. Life is complex. Therefore, life is designed), and others of this ilk.

17 Argument from Insult (direct and implied)/Armchair Psychology. Assumes that you can make someone accept your claims by calling them names (direct), or questioning their mental faculties, eg “you can't possibly believe that fish can turn into men !!” - implying you are stupid. You would have to be, to fall for that old strawman argument.

Armchair psychology is when they diagnose a mental condition for you -such as "You are OBVIOUSLY afraid of God, and want science to save you!", or "The ONLY reason you believe in evolution is you fear being held accountable for your actions !", or even "You have OBVIOUSLY closed your heart/mind off to THE TRUTH !!"

18 Argument from Misplaced Authority. When you hear someone quoting an astrophysicist who states that 'evolution is too improbable', for instance (like the old "Tornado through a junkyard, building a 747 !" argument). Expertise in ONE field does NOT grant expertise in ALL fields.

19 Argument from Improbability/'Evolution is ALL chance !!'. Usually seen in abiogenesis arguments, this makes the assumption that a modern protein had to be made in just one attempt. But, since natural selection selects more successful variants, it can make improbable combinations occur by working sequentially (several small improvements).

20 Martyr Syndrome, Histrionics, and Emotional Appeals. Creationist will claim they are being discriminated against, or called names ONLY because they are creationist/have faith (actually, they are being called names because they are using lame arguments, and excessive use of Zepellin Ego). Shopenhauer's Maxim fits in here as well (the 'All great truths pass through three stages - they are ridiculed, then they are violently opposed, then they are accepted as obvious')

Also includes such rancid fare as "Hitler/Stallin/Mao and other nasty people 'believed in'/used evolution; therefore, evolution is evil !!", and "Racists use the theory of evolution to justify their actions; therefore, evolution is evil !!" where the main attempt is to discredit the Theory of evolution with polemics, politics and emotions without having to demonstrate that it is wrong.

21 Mobile Goalposts/Backpedaling. Occurs when the creationist asks for something, you give it to him, and then he claims that's NOT what he REALLY wanted, or that it REALLY doesn't qualify as evidence for your position (without clearly explaining why).

22 "No Eyewitnesses !!" - type argument. Claims that since no one was there to physically observe the event, we can't REALLY be sure it happened. Or, like using spectroscopy to determine what elements are in an interstellar gas cloud is invalid because no one has gone out there to physically retrieve a sample of the interstellar gas.

23 Misuse and Misunderstandings (or guilt by association). eg the Theory of evolution/'Evolution is RACISM/ATHEISM/RELIGION !!" Oddly assumes that since evolution is based on assumptions, and religion is based on assumptions, that evolution is therefore a religion (ie, accepted as true WITHOUT evidence). Also assumes that one must give up God to accept the validity of evolution (false).

Since the Theory of evolution is purely a biological theory that explains how life changes over time, it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to say about morals, ethics, theology, philosophy, or cultural development, which is why claims like "the end product of the PHILOSOPHY of evolutionISM is the erosion of morality !!" belong in this category.

24 Ignorance of Science and its Methods. When someone demands that science PROVE something, or that 'evolution is NOT scientific'. Science deals with EVIDENCE, not PROOF. Evolution is scientific because it does make testable and falsifiable predictions (like, 'what would we EXPECT to find in the fossil record if descent with modification was true ?')

Also claims that fly in the face of known physics, chemistry, geology, etc go in here as well.

25 Fallacy of the General Rule. 'If sedimentation can occur quickly under these conditions, it therefore can occur quickly in ALL conditions !!" is the prime example. This fallacy occurs when a rule is applied too broadly (The Mount St Helen's example of a young earth and polystrate fossil formation are other standard creationist fares).

26 Radiometric and Dating Whines. Common enough to warrant separation from 'Ignorance of Science and Its Methods'. Just baseless complaints/questions about the validity of known and verified dating methods.

27 Muddled logic and other fallacies. The 'miscellaneous' category. Things like Special Pleading ('all things require a cause – EXCEPT GOD'), Circular Arguments (the statement you are trying to prove is one of the assumptions - 'God created things. Things exist. Therefore, God exists !), and Non Sequitor statements (have no relevance to the topic at hand - like bible verses discussing morality when the topic was natural selection).

28 Mind Games and Rhetorical Tricks. Includes Projection (you keep changing all of his definitions of words BACK to what they really are, and he accuses you of redefining words to suit your argument), White Knight (rushing to the aid of a fellow creationist just because he/she is a creationist), going on incoherent rants, and 'just plain NUTS!!'.

Use of the 'Gish Gallop' (and its electronic forum equivalent of flooding the message board so the latest "irrefutable demolition of evilution" post that got shredded and burned to ash drops off the bottom) is an example of a rhetorical trick - others fairly easy to recognise.
 
Wow!

Maybe we can make this a "sticky" of all the tactics and fallacies?

You disagree?

That is because you are afraid!

I will pray for you!

Where did that virgin get to. . . .

--J.D.
 
Great one, Chance. Now all we need to do is translate it into latin. :) I think the "banana" argument goes under #16?
 
"Banana" agrument? Please elucidate. I'm not sure I've heard that one.

I think this is what the "banana argument refers to:

The banana is proof that god exists. Think about it. The fact that the edible banana cannot be grown from seed is yet more proof of god - man cannot grow bananas from seed, but god can - a miracle!

The way the skin fits around the curves of the fruit and gently peels back to reveal the soft white flesh beneath. The inner part of the skin is designed not to stick to the flesh, therefore allowing easy removal. A perfect fast-food for todays busy, but healthy eaters. The shape has been perfectly designed to fit in ones pocket. It has a hard hook at the top so that you can easily peel it - proof that god designed it for consumption by creatures with five fingers and two hands.

How can you deny the existence of god when you see the beautiful streamlined shape, soft texture and peelability of the banana.
 
Whoa! I never thought of that! It all makes so much sense. I love bananas. I...I love Jesus! PRAISE THE LORD! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT. ALL YOU A-THEISTS ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!

Well, you have to admit it's an awfully seductive argument. ;)
 
I know the thread got derailed, but I still want to try this one. And apologies in advance for my pathetic latin.

Argumentum ad Argumentum Absolutem - the fallacy of believing that finding a fallacy (especially one for which a sexy latin term can be found) in someone else's justification necessarily means their whole argument is bunk.

A kind of combination of the "Fallacy fallacy" and a denial of the antecedent form of a non sequitur.

Being a pompous a** in layman's terms.
 
The "Banana" argument was from that "Atheist Quiz", which I can't seem to find on the internet any more.

It was something like:

The color of a banana peel indicates the freshness of the fruit inside, just like the label on a can of cola indicates what's inside.
Question:
If someone thinks that a can of cola does not have a designer, is that person an idiot?

Or something like that.
 
I think I'd find a banana vs tin of coke conundrum less challenging than a chicken vs egg one.
 
It's a wonderful commentary on how they, not only don't understand atheism, they don't understand their own belief system.

But I do love the banananana one. I'd never thought of it being perforated, with a tab, and a colour indicator. Always assumed we'd figured out how to use it that way.

I can't believe the same guy came up with walnuts, avocados and shellfish,. oh, ummm.
 
Don't get me started on bannanas...

I put the condom on the bannana just like they showed me in school, but I still got pregnant!
 
Until you can agree with these sentiments, you're not a fundy.

This one stands out:

To the aclu and its supporters: Go ahead, have it. Have the earth your way. We will BE GONE soon!

But remember this, we WILL be back! Back with the Shepherd. The LION of the tribe of Judah! The seed of David! We will get back what has been taken, we will prevail and Christ WILL sit on the throne in Jerusalem!

And YYYYOOOOUUUU WILL BOW AT HIS FEET AND CONFESS HIS NAME!

Though this reply to it is interesting:
You are absolutely right half pint.......and Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. It will no longer be a man made government. It will be HIS way!!
 
Like any good fascist organization, oppression, rape, pillage, and bad music is all fine and dandy so long as you get to be part of the Master Race/Elite/Saved.

Of course, if "their" fascist organization takes over FIRST . . . well . . . problem!

Reminds me of a line from my favorite guilty pleasure--Law and Order--when Ray is interrogating a Hispanic White Supremacist:

R: And just whom do you think he was refering to when he talked about "the mud-people," . . . hermano?!

--J.D.
 

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