Thermitic Pyrotechnics in the WTC Made Simple

[Toke]

yea you burried it with your peer reviewed article in bentham

“Reaction rates between nanosize aluminum
and metal oxides can be significantly greater
than those observed with traditional micron-size
thermite powders. Reactions occurring between
metal and metal oxide powders are accompanied
by the generation of high temperatures
(>3000 K). Super-thermites, formed by mixing
of aluminum and metal oxide nanopowders result
in energy release rate by two orders of
magnitude higher than similar mixtures consisting
of micron size reactants” [22

The highlighted bit means that the reaction is faster, not that it release more energi in total.

 

[golotomer]

Exactly but the power of the reaction increases as particle size is reduced.Energy released in a short period of time causes explosive shockwave of heat and pressure.

 

[zooterkin]

Exactly but the power of the reaction increases as particle size is reduced.Energy released in a short period of time causes explosive shockwave of heat and pressure.

Care to put some figures on how much energy you'd get from a layer of paint nano-thermite?

 

[golotomer]

Its not total energy its energy released per second ,your calculations that the energy from nanothermite are wrong because its about speed of reaction.

 

[Toke]

Its not total energy its energy released per second ,your calculations that the energy from nanothermite are wrong because its about speed of reaction.

I think I understand what you mean, and you are wrong.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

yea you burried it with your peer reviewed article in bentham

“Reaction rates between nanosize aluminum
and metal oxides can be significantly greater
than those observed with traditional micron-size
thermite powders. Reactions occurring between
metal and metal oxide powders are accompanied
by the generation of high temperatures
(>3000 K). Super-thermites, formed by mixing
of aluminum and metal oxide nanopowders result
in energy release rate by two orders of
magnitude higher than similar mixtures consisting
of micron size reactants” [22

In the context of the conclusion the Bentham paper asserts, I think you're missing something rather critical. Nanosizing achieves greater energy release over time by allowing more surface area of reactants to be exposed to each other. In a very well mixed and well proportioned setup, you can indeed get closer to the ideal rate as well as the maximum energy release of the iron oxide/aluminum redox reaction. It's all about proximity; when the activation energy is made available, a molecule of aluminum must be able to look around and quickly and easily see a molecule of iron oxide to reduce.

So what's my point? My point is that when you analyze the results, you note that there is a decent amount of non-reactants involved (mostly the organic matrix that Jones seems to claim is due to the "sol-gel" supposedly holding the thermite in place, but including other elements) which, if anything, should limit some aspect of the reaction, either the percentage completion or the rate. Either way, the point is that the energy release should be some percentage of the ideal, maximum energy release from a thermite reaction. Problem is, it's the opposite; it's several times the maximum.

If the energy released - regardless of rate - is several times the maximum possible in a thermite redox, and achieves this in the face of factors that should interfere with the reaction, how can we claim that a thermite redox actually occurred? The fact that the energy released it and of itself is far, far different demonstrates that, at best, another reaction is also occuring, and more probably that the alternate reaction actually is the entirety of what the authors are seeing. So what does all this concentration on the effect of refinement to nanometer-sized particles matter, given that the energetics presented in the paper contradict the notion that the reaction observed was a thermite redox one?

That's what I feel you're missing. You're concentrating on the energy release - whether in magnitude or, as you highlight, rate - but you ignore the fact that the figure given in the paper contraindicates the conclusion.

 

[R.Mackey]

yea you burried it with your peer reviewed article in bentham

There is no such animal.

We proved that here, too.

 

[zooterkin]

Its not total energy its energy released per second ,your calculations that the energy from nanothermite are wrong because its about speed of reaction.

It makes no difference how fast the energy is released is there's not enough of it to have any effect.

 

[golotomer]

super-thermite, which may include organic ingredients for
rapid gas generation, is considered a pyrotechnic or explosive


"It is striking that some of the red/gray chips release more
energy in kJ/g than does ordinary thermite, as shown in the
blue bar graphs above. The theoretical maximum for thermite
is 3.9 kJ/g [27]. We suggest that the organic material in
evidence in the red/gray chips is also highly energetic, most
likely producing gas to provide explosive pressure"

 

[FineWine]

super-thermite, which may include organic ingredients for
rapid gas generation, is considered a pyrotechnic or explosive


"It is striking that some of the red/gray chips release more
energy in kJ/g than does ordinary thermite, as shown in the
blue bar graphs above. The theoretical maximum for thermite
is 3.9 kJ/g [27]. We suggest that the organic material in
evidence in the red/gray chips is also highly energetic, most
likely producing gas to provide explosive pressure"

You might want to read some of Sunstealer's exhaustive work on this subject.

 

[Thunder]

So when is MIT's report on the presence of thermite in the truther samples due to come out?

 

[R.Mackey]

"It is striking that some of the red/gray chips release more
energy in kJ/g than does ordinary thermite, as shown in the
blue bar graphs above. The theoretical maximum for thermite
is 3.9 kJ/g [27]. We suggest that the organic material in
evidence in the red/gray chips is also highly energetic, most
likely producing gas to provide explosive pressure"

... and this is one of the things that proves it isn't thermite.

Paint, on the other hand, contains "organic material" with greater than 3.9 kJ/g combustion energy.

Honestly, read the threads. There's about 100 pages of them here. You appear to be the least educated, yet you persist in trying to lecture us...

 

[golotomer]

Well im saying total energy released is rather irrelevent and its watts/gram which is more important tool to considering how explosive it is.Chocalate bars do not explode in your stomach but they slowly release energy.

Paint doesnt have narrow exotherms with more wattage than known nanothermite explosives.It doesnt release all its energy all at 430c .
It cannot form molten iron spheres at 430c either.

The 4 samples showed 10-22 watts per gram.
Fe2O3/UFG Al nanocomposite (from Tillotson et al. [28]). only showed 6 watt/gram.

 

[TheDaver]

Paint doesnt have narrow exotherms with more wattage than known nanothermite explosives.It doesnt release all its energy all at 430c.
It cannot form molten iron spheres at 430c either.

Am I the only one imagining a paint can flying along at 430× the speed of light?

 

[R.Mackey]

Paint doesnt have narrow exotherms with more wattage than known nanothermite explosives.It doesnt release all its energy all at 430c .

yes, sometimes it does.

It cannot form molten iron spheres at 430c either.

Neither can "nanothermite."

The 4 samples showed 10-22 watts per gram.
Fe2O3/UFG Al nanocomposite (from Tillotson et al. [28]). only showed 6 watt/gram.

Which proves, dun da dah, that what Dr. Jones had was not nanothermite. It doesn't match. That does not mean that what you have is something similar but better, it means it's something different.

Words fail me in expressing how utterly elementary this leap in logic is. It's like looking at the sky. The sky is blue. Then you see something green, and you say, "I'm looking at the sky, only better." That's what you're doing. It's no wonder you're a Truther.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

super-thermite, which may include organic ingredients for
rapid gas generation, is considered a pyrotechnic or explosive


"It is striking that some of the red/gray chips release more
energy in kJ/g than does ordinary thermite, as shown in the
blue bar graphs above. The theoretical maximum for thermite
is 3.9 kJ/g [27]. We suggest that the organic material in
evidence in the red/gray chips is also highly energetic, most
likely producing gas to provide explosive pressure"

If it's the organic material providing the energy, then I'd say we don't have a thermite reaction.

Like Ryan said, this is elementary. Why postulate thermite when it's the organic matrix providing both the potential energy and supposed explosive characteristics?

 

[golotomer]

No adjusting the size of the particles in thermites reduces ignition temperature and increases energy released per second.This is due to surface area.This is the great thing about nanothermites you can tune them to the explosive power you need.

""the ability to tune the reactive power
(10 KW/cc to 10 GW/cc), tunable reaction front velocities of
0.1-1500 meters/sec, and reaction zone temperature exceeding
3000K.""

DOD Researchers Provide A Look Inside Nanotechnology

The samples showed more watt per gram than known nanothermite,this does not mean their different chemicals,it just means the red chips are a more effecient thermite reaction.

Some of the red chips were lower.It seems natural that you would use different tailor made nanothermites for different purposes cutting steel or pulverising concrete.
Thus different nanothermite were used in the destruction.
Nanothermites are the perfect tool for such a job.

A thermite reaction creates molten iron, of course nanothermites can produce iron spheres ,this is expected.
Its an exothermic reaction ,it doesnt take 430c to melt iron,it takes 430c to react nanothermite sample.

Please provide a Paint sample which has narrow exotherms like the nanothermite i showed you.If it was as narrow it would be explosive.

 

[BigAl]

""the ability to tune the reactive power
(10 KW/cc to 10 GW/cc), tunable reaction front velocities of
0.1-1500 meters/sec, and reaction zone temperature exceeding

What kind of "units" are KW/cc" and "GW/cc"?

I smell junk science and a scientifically illiterate Googler.

 

[R.Mackey]

That's not what an "exotherm" means. An exotherm is a plot of temperature versus time during a chemical reaction. The exotherm tells you how much energy is contained within different chemical reactions, and what their activation temperature is. A narrow exotherm only means that you have a fairly uniform substance, that it reacts quickly, and that there is only one reaction, or only one reaction chain.

Many types of paint contain some inert substances, and some flammable substances, for example the organic binder -- it could be an oil-based or similar substance, and it could all burn at more or less the same temperature. That gives you a narrow exotherm.

Think of paper. Paper will all auto-ignite at about the same temperature, and when it does, it burns into something non-combustible (ashes). A small sample will burn very quickly indeed once it reaches the right temperature. So paper also has a narrow exotherm.

You've been duped into thinking the exotherm tells you that it's thermite. It doesn't. What Dr. Tillotson found in his paper -- which I've read, and you haven't -- is how his nanothermite behaved in ordinary circumstances. He wanted to know what kind of power output he could expect, and what reaction temperature, in ordinary atmosphere. He did not use the exotherm to identify what reaction was taking place. He didn't need to -- he made the stuff! He knew what it was.

Dr. Jones, on the other hand, shows you an exotherm and claims that on that basis (plus a couple of other sloppy observations, which are incomplete and inconclusive) that his reaction is a thermite reaction. You can't do that. Dr. Jones lied, and you fell for it.

That part I can easily forgive. You obviously know next to nothing about physical chemistry or materials science. You're at a serious disadvantage to withstand lies told by people waving their Ph.D's around and pretending to be doing science.

What I can't forgive, however, is your "spreading the word." You don't know what you're talking about. Instead of learning, you instead assume that anyone who disagrees with you must be wrong, stupid, uneducated, etc., and even though all you know is about five minutes worth of soundbites, you think this puts you head and shoulders above anyone you might encounter.

In other words, you're a Truther.

Until you show you have even the faintest glimmer of understanding of these principles, nobody is obligated to show you anything. That's just how it is, sorry.

 

[golotomer]

The dsc measured watts per gram ,this is a measure of power or energy released over time.
The power of the red chips was more than known nanothermite reactions.

I dont know of any paint which is more explosive than tnt nor do i know of paint reacting at 430c in a exothermic reaction which creates molten iron.

MEK solvent used on red chips seperated silicon rich regions of the red chips,while the aluminium seperated into aluminium rich regions.A solvent will not seperate aluminium and silicates because paints like kaolin are aluminosilicates and solvents do not dissolve aluminium and silicates from an aluminosilicate.
Not only that the cross section and treated red chips displayed no zinc or chemicals used in wtc primer paint.