Moderated Thermite: Was it there or not?

Oh poor bill smith is trying the "US government can control the academic universities around the world" claptrap.

Why not use any of the great engineering schools in places like IRAN, VENEZUELA, NORTH KOREA. You know, places which HATE the US?

Or in places who would LOVE to out the US and destroy the US credibility around the world? Places like China, Russia and lots of places in eastern europe.

Come on billy boy... your delusions of adequecy are rather amusing.

There are some GREAT engineering schools and academic universities in those countries...

Try again twoof.
 
You can’t say: “The results of the X test in the paper do not match Thermite”, and then say: “Jones is fabricating lies for self-promotion, the paper is a fraud.” If that were true, why wouldn’t he fabricate some lies that match Thermite? .


Because rational, thinking people aren't his target audience.

Troofers are.

He has no interest in proving his findings to anybody but troofers.

Think about that...
 
Actually, it was never DESIGNED to take a plane hit, not even a low speed one.

There were no codes at that time that required this, so it wasn't done.

What happened, IIRC, was that there was a local group opposing the construction of such a large tower, citing the ESB crash as one of their arguments.

In response the PA wrote a 2 page press release that said it was specifically designed to withstand a high speed, fully fueled 707. So troofers have some back up about that, although it's been postulated that this was nothing more than a PR piece.

What Robertson says is that he's unaware of that design criteria ever being part of the design process. What he does say, is that AFTER this issue came up in the press, etc, is that he did a back of the enveope calculation of a low speed plane crashing into the building, and he estimated that it would survive the hit. As others have stated, the effects of the fuel starting fires couldn't be modeled due to technology limitations at the time.

To cut to the chase, it was never designed to take ANY plane hit, according to Robertson. It's just that after the building was designed, it was determined that it would survive a plane hit.

seymour do you have a citation for this?

I know there are several videos on youtube and google video of the History channel interviews with him where he states (rather emphatically) that they were designed to withstand a "slow moving, lost in the fog 707"

I can provide the youtube videos of this.

If in fact it was more of an after the fact, back of the envelope figures, I'd love to see this citation, because it shows that the towers are more fragile than I thought.

Do you have a citation for that?




and his full interview with the bbc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/pro...archive/leslie_robertson/index_textonly.shtml
We had designed the project for the impact of the largest airplane of its time, the Boeing 707. The 767 that actually hit the WTC was quite another matter again. First of all it was a bit heavier than the 707, not very much heavier, but a bit heavier. But mostly it was flying a lot faster. And the energy that it put into the building is proportional to its square of the velocity, as you double the velocity, four times the energy. Triple the velocity, eight times the energy and so forth.

And then of course with the 707 to the best of my knowledge the fuel load was not considered in the design, and indeed I don't know how it could have been considered. But, and with the 767 the fuel load was enormous compared to that of the 707, it was a fully fuelled airplane compared to the 707 which was a landing aircraft. Just absolutely no comparison between the two.

ETA:

I have seen the 911myths.com article on it which references this
http://scott-juris.blogspot.com/The Height of Ambition Part Four.pdf
but it doesn't show that it was a "back of the envelope" calculation, and was not designed for a jet impact.
 
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seymour do you have a citation for this?

IIRC, I read through one of Gravy's pages, and it laid it all out. He had the old press releases from the PA, and Robertson's rather emphatic statement that they were never specifically designed for a plane hit, etc....

Sorry, I don't keep links.

Not interested in debating troofers much anymore.
 
Well, maybe it wasn't entirely on Gravy's pages. I took 2 minuted to find this.

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_707_impact.html

"Robertson took the time to calculate how well his towers would handle the impact from a Boeing 707...."

To me, this says after the fact, and not a design criteria.

And about the PA and it being a PR job: Wien was the head of the group opposing the towers' construction.

"But the Port Authority, eager to mount a counterattack against Wien, seized on the results -- and may in fact have exaggerated them."

And:

"Note that according to this, the towers were not specifically designed to survive the impact from a plane. Rather, Robertson carried out some calculations on the existing design to assess what the results of impact might be."
 
mybe I do know or maybe this is just disinformation.

Or a practical joke, or a delusional nutter. Since it's a five-year-old story linked to a dead web page, it's a little difficult to tell. Can you give us some examples of the debunking posts "Eddie Smith" made in Belgium before his change of heart? You see, I suspect he just made a couple of fake debunking posts so as to "come out" and bolster his own paranoia with his own lies, the way truthers seem to love doing.

Dave
 
Or a practical joke, or a delusional nutter. Since it's a five-year-old story linked to a dead web page, it's a little difficult to tell. Can you give us some examples of the debunking posts "Eddie Smith" made in Belgium before his change of heart? You see, I suspect he just made a couple of fake debunking posts so as to "come out" and bolster his own paranoia with his own lies, the way truthers seem to love doing.

Dave

Just kidding Dave.
 
...

Given that no credible scientific body has debunked this controversial but peer-reviewed paper it seems obvious that it is an honest scientific study and that Jones is an honest man.

The only way to fight this is for NIST to empower Princeton or another university to perform an 'independent' study of their own using smples of dust from NIST itself and control samples from Jones and his team.
Only to a person suffering massive delusions can't debunk Jones. Jones work debunks itself for the critical thinker. Those who can't debunk Jones lack knowlege or prefer to spread moronic lies about 911.

Critical thinking skills = You can debunk Jones

The bench mark time for understanding 911 is minutes by the Passengers of Flight 93. They did in minutes what those who spread lies about 911 take years to master.

There is no need to fight Jones' fantasy conclusions on controlled demolition. Those that believe Jones are not critical thinkers, and those who are critical thinkers see Jones' fraud from the first paragraph he wrote on the subject. How many more years will it take you to do what some people do in minutes?

Universities are intersested in real research not exposing lies from a fraud when it is clear he is making up his conclsuions. The fact is it is proved the WTC collapse due to impacts, fires, and gravity. Proved by multiple studies for those who can researach past google 911.

The universites already proved the WTC fell in a gravity collapse; Did you fail to research properly? Universities proved Jones wrong you must exercise your critical thinking skills instead of your posting lies skills perfected by being gullible or just being a perfect SPAM troll. Once the Universities proved the gravity collapse is correct it makes Jones a liar; this happened years ago.

Reading this paragraph from Jones' first paper proved he is a fraud on thermite. Reading comprehension, some research, and a grade school education is all you need.
The observations of molten metal (I did not say molten steel!) in the basements of all three buildings, WTC 1, 2 and 7 is consistent with the use of the extremely high-temperature thermite reaction: iron oxide + aluminum powder --> Al2O3 + molten iron. Falling buildings are not observed to generate melting of large quantities of molten metal -- this requires a concentrated heat source such as explosives. Even the government reports admit that the fires were insufficient to melt steel beams (they argue for heating and warping then failure of these beams) -- but these reports do not mention the observed molten metal in the basements of WTC1, 2 and 7. Again we have a glaring omission of critical data in the FEMA, NIST and 9-11 Commission reports.
The Universities don't have to debunk Jones' paper, they have already proved his overall conclusion is moronic.

Those who lack knowledge, those who have no capability of doing valid research, those who prefer fantasy and lies about 911 will be unable to debunk Jones on their own until they gain knowledge, valid research skills, and drop the moronic fantasies.

When will you do valid research to see Jones was debunked on 911? Never? Next week? Next year?

99.999 percent of all engineers can see Jones is a liar by looking at his work; The work Jones does is self-debunking.
The Structural Engineer who built the WTC, the top expert on the WTC structure said.
Robertson said, “the collapse mechanism of the trade center, is as we anticipated it would be, when we first designed it” StevenJones_LeslieRobertson_20061026.mp3
When he heard Jones' delusion on thermite he called them, "Preposterous" and "irresponsible". So the top expert thinks Jones' ideas are nonsense and that the gravity collapse of the WTC was a gravity collapse. Jones is a fraud who makes up conspiracy theories with no evidence and Robertson is the person who structurally designed the WTC. Who would you believe? BTW, if you can't figure out Jones is a fraud the work the Universities have done to debunk Jones already or in the future will not be understood by you and your delusion club.
How long will people remain in ignorance repeating Jones' lies? There are complete studies already with proof of a gravity collapse! The problem here is not debunking Jones by Universities, it is you don't understand their work in the first place. Having a delusion or an illusion is hard to break even when given the truth. Maturity may step in and fix your dependence on believing dirt dumb delusions.
So instead of understanding 911 and doing your own thinking you will post a pithy lie and go on to SPAM with more lies. Is physics too hard for you?
 
The only way to fight this is for NIST to empower Princeton or another university to perform an 'independent' study of their own using smples of dust from NIST itself and control samples from Jones and his team.

What? Jones can't put a sample in an anonymous package with an anonymous PO box as a return address?

Methinks that Mr. Bill doesn't know what "independent" means.
 
John Skilling, lead structural engineer of the WTC said that the Towers could withstand the impact of a boeing 707 travelling at 600 mph. The only concern was it dumping it's fuel load in through the windows.

They thought that the exterior box-columns would crush against the concrete floors that they were braced against keeping the majority of the plane from breaching the building.
 
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Mackey, I guess you are done in this thread. (No one as arrogant as Macky can let a comment like this pass without responding....)

Trutherslie, are you part of the Mackey fan club.....why would you stick up for someone who is as rude as he is?

Bunch of goofs can't even answer simple questions; they're too worried that I'll back them into a thermite corner....even though all I ever say is that I do not support the Thermite hypothesis.

All I wish to speculate on is Jones' motives and specific falsifications within his paper in order to provide a clear, factual response to those I debate.

What I've found is that even the "premiere"(and I use this term very loosely now because I mostly consider you ignorant as a result of our conversations(not all of you)) debunkers can't find a consensus.
 
All I wish to speculate on is Jones' motives and specific falsifications within his paper in order to provide a clear, factual response to those I debate.

What I've found is that even the "premiere"(and I use this term very loosely now because I mostly consider you ignorant as a result of our conversations(not all of you)) debunkers can't find a consensus.

In other words you find it odd that we don't reach a consensus when it comes to reading Steven Jones' mind? :confused:
 
John Skilling, lead structural engineer of the WTC said that the Towers could witstand the impact of a boeing 707 travelling at 600 mph. The only concern was it dumping it's fuel load in through the windows.

And since Skilling had passed on prior to 9/11 and couldn't speak for himself, his associate addressed the gas:

Henry Guthard, engineer and one of Yamasaki's original partners who also worked as the project manager at the [WTC] site, said, "To hit the building, to disappear, to have pieces come out the other side, it was amazing the building stood. To defend against 5,000 (sic) gallons of ignited fuel in a building of 1350 feet is just not possible.

http://snurl.com/j54gc (Report From Ground Zero page 188)​
 
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Mackey, I guess you are done in this thread. (No one as arrogant as Macky can let a comment like this pass without responding....)

Trutherslie, are you part of the Mackey fan club.....why would you stick up for someone who is as rude as he is?

Bunch of goofs can't even answer simple questions; they're too worried that I'll back them into a thermite corner....even though all I ever say is that I do not support the Thermite hypothesis.

You are by far the rudest person in this thread, particularly with comments like the above. Yet you complain about us. I doubt you even fool yourself.

All I wish to speculate on is Jones' motives and specific falsifications within his paper in order to provide a clear, factual response to those I debate.

What I've found is that even the "premiere"(and I use this term very loosely now because I mostly consider you ignorant as a result of our conversations(not all of you)) debunkers can't find a consensus.

Incorrect. I answered all of your questions. The "consensus" you ask for is on Dr. Jones's motive, and there is none to be found. It also doesn't matter.

What does matter is that there is no scientific support for thermite, and on that issue, there is total consensus.

Anyway, since you think I'm so "rude," you won't mind being added to my Ignore list. Bye.
 
John Skilling, lead structural engineer of the WTC said that the Towers could witstand the impact of a boeing 707 travelling at 600 mph. The only concern was it dumping it's fuel load in through the windows.

They thought that the exterior box-columns would crush against the concrete floors that they were braced against keeping the majority of the plane from breaching the building.
No, Skilling never said 600 mph. Why do you post lies? Robertson was the chief structural engineer, you need to check who signed the blueprints.

Robertson did the study and the planes speed was 180 mph, low on fuel, and it would have almost bounced off at 180 mph! Got physics? This study was confirmed by another study done after 911! You are debunked.

The second paragraph of your post is correct! A plane at 180 mph would not breach the building, and would not cause the massive core fires.

Stop posting lies due to your failed research. The speed was 180 mph and that comes from the chief structural engineer Robertson, not the failed source you did not check. You can't show where Skilling said 600 mph because he never said it. You have been fooled again.

But it is correct, the 707 at 180 mph would not do but local damage to the exterior of the building. The speed is the key and the thickness of the steel is the other factor.

On 911 the plane impacts were 7 and 11 times greater in energy than the design to keep aircraft out. This is why the impacts fatally wounded the buildings. Speed kills.
 
Oops....and ' The Flying Debunker ' raises his shields again. Warp six Mr Spock, We're outta here.
 
Phew, I was wondering how much more it would take to get Macky to ignore me. You failed to provide any legitimate answers anyhow....just the same Duhbunker canned lines....

...with regards to your disposition; if you can't take it Ryan, don't dish it out.

Beachnut and Trutherslie, could you ignore me as well?
 
Iam.

1. I certainly do respect Ryan Mackeys work. Please find me a single instance where he is WRONG, or has outright lied. Either in his refutation of DR Griffins debunking 911 debunking, or in his Physics of 9/11 shows on hardfire. Until you do so, then I hate to tell you, he deserves the respect.

So far you have acted like a petulant 5 year old. You have come here and insulted many folks and acted like someone with a toothache.

You have asked BS questions in attempts to set up BS strawman arguments and been nailed for it. Then you have acted like a child with the "what did I do?" attitude.

You asked a false choice question, and then acted petulant when it was explained how you were wrong.

The answer given by myself and others stand. Jones and co have made many comments concerning thermite, thermate, and now super duper nanothermite. The answers given by different individuals are responses to one, or more of these bs claims.

you have NOT been specific in your questions and when pressed about it you have behaved like a child.

You should apologize for being an ***, and maybe we can get on from there.
 
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No, Skilling never said 600 mph. Why do you post lies? Robertson was the chief structural engineer, you need to check who signed the blueprints.

Robertson did the study and the planes speed was 180 mph, low on fuel, and it would have almost bounced off at 180 mph! Got physics? This study was confirmed by another study done after 911! You are debunked.

The second paragraph of your post is correct! A plane at 180 mph would not breach the building, and would not cause the massive core fires.

Stop posting lies due to your failed research. The speed was 180 mph and that comes from the chief structural engineer Robertson, not the failed source you did not check. You can't show where Skilling said 600 mph because he never said it. You have been fooled again.

But it is correct, the 707 at 180 mph would not do but local damage to the exterior of the building. The speed is the key and the thickness of the steel is the other factor.

On 911 the plane impacts were 7 and 11 times greater in energy than the design to keep aircraft out. This is why the impacts fatally wounded the buildings. Speed kills.

Are you sure Beachnut ?

John Skilling (biographical note)
John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or McDonald Douglas DC-8.


John Skilling said:
'' Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.''

John Skilling said.
'' The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707—DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact ''
 
They thought that the exterior box-columns would crush against the concrete floors that they were braced against keeping the majority of the plane from breaching the building.

No they didn't. They thouight that the plane would punch through the exterior columns like a screen door but leave the structure standing - exactly what happened.

Dave
 

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