Moderated Thermite: Was it there or not?

NiceGuy, I don`t know how old you are or what you do for a living. There are people here who publish these kinds of papers for a living. I am one of them. In our minds, some of what are referred to as peer-reviewed journals are actually no good at all. Publishing in them has no meaning at all. It has the same meaning as putting your paper up on the Internet. For example, the Journal of 9/11 Studies has no status at all. Publishing in it has the same meaning as putting a paper up on your blog - perhaps even less.

Even results published in respectable venues are sometimes ignored completely. The fact is that some scientists are not very good at doing research. Their results can be duplicated by others and skilled scientists can tell this by looking at the research. Work like this may still find its way into a quality venue and work published outside these venues may still be good.

The fact is that Steven Jones has found nothing at all. He would not be publishing his results this way if he had good data that could stand up. He would have sent it to a highly respected journal like the ones listed by Thompson International.
http://science.thomsonreuters.com/mjl/
He could even present his findings at a professional conference attended by other similar scientists who could ask him questions directly.

Neither Steven Jones nor any of his `scholars` have done anything like this - in years. The only conclusion is that they can`t. Instead, they use the popular press, the Internet, they talk with lay groups. Face it, instead of having Dr. XXXX who has discussed the thermite bombs with Jones at a conference and can explain their physics to us, we are forced to deal with you. Why can`t we talk with Dow Chemical chemists who make thermite for the US military? Sure, they`re all in on it, I know. But the reality is they`ve probably never heard of Jones` work because he only talks about it with you guys and publishes it in a journal that`s not very important.

And finally, no one here is surprised at Jones doing it this way - I mean announcing scientific results through non-academic means. He has already been involved in one of the biggest scientific frauds in modern history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
 
I suppose mixing in some science before you make your moronic conclusion based on your lies and fantasy fools those people who have not researched 911.

I laughed out loud when I read this beatchnut......something about leopards and spots.

Thanks for the links though......

EDIT:

I don't know why Twinsdead 2 posts down has it out for me? I guarantee he didn't read all 2 pages of posts...stereotype, predjudice, generalization, pigeonhole......we need to start seeing people for what they say, and what they do, in our own experiences.........why be so quick to judge? Because its happened so many times before? Is this a good enough excuse for humanity? I've met a lot of poor and dishonest Somalian people, should I treat the next one I meet with incivility? Obviously not....I will treat him according to his actions and his words in my experience.

I'm learning more, reading much, running about 24 windows, needing badly to organize some favorites. I'll certainly respond to Sctottaiwan's post in good time.

Tsig, I'll get to you too, quid pro quo.

Everyone else please read post #79
 
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However, these 'moderate' truthers still cling hard to the "nano-thermite proven by science-paper" bit and even claim to have an answer to your paint theory(fact by you, theory by them), which I have yet, (but am eager to) to see succinctly debunked.

Assume you have an unlimited supply of therm-anything and have the ability to place it anywhere you want inside a WTC tower and can ignite it any way you want.

I give you that.

Whatever happens, it won't look like what thousands of people saw on 9/11 and what we all watch on YouTube.

There is no evidence of any sort of man-made demolition at WTC.
 
I laughed out loud when I read this beatchnut......something about leopards and spots.

Thanks for the links though......

Interesting out of the two posts following yours, you chose that one to respond to...
 
Well Jack, if I ever decide to make a claim based on one of my opinions, I'll be sure to present my evidence and if I called Carl dense, he most probably was. Meanwhile, my own opinion is being given to me based on assumptions; I have never received the benefit of doubt...

I do not seek to prove that Dr. Steven Jones found *.*Therm*.* in the WTC dust, either directly or indirectly. All I would like to know is the truth of the matter. So I guess that makes me a Truther.

I'm reading all about the paint right now. I look forward to posting my reply.




The Conspirators.

Terror.

Control.

Who were the Conspirators?

Terror does not answer the How question.

Control of what?
 
Mackey, if you had bothered to read through all 2 pages of previous posts in order to gain better context as you commented, you would not have prematurely levied a fallacy. I can concede that I did not bold the "E)". Moving on...

...to the main event, this little 'science' paper;oh so hotly received by the 9/11 Movement, fiercely disseminated and criticised by Skeptics.

There are a few well known Truther-bloggers, who have managed to abandon some of the common-sense debunked CT's(No Planes, Fly-over,etc). This has created a fraction in what you refer to as the 911 Truth movement, where one side is accusing the other of being disinformation agents. You've got architects and engineers all over the place!

http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/

However, these 'moderate' truthers still cling hard to the "nano-thermite proven by science-paper" bit and even claim to have an answer to your paint theory(fact by you, theory by them), which I have yet, (but am eager to) to see succinctly debunked.

In football we used to say; last guy to the chalkboard wins the game. I mean, advantage Jones when it comes to the Internet wars.....(and please don't misrepresent me on this, I'm not saying the tm is winning)

One thing I've wondered, and I really don't want the usual and typical responses, is: How do we know that the entire thing isn't simply made up? Debating the science rests on the premise that something was legitimately found in Jones' WTC dust samples.....right? Based on Mackey's info, I would be led to believe this(real find) is correct.

As for paint, here's what Jones rebukes, which is reverbarated by these bloggers in addition to the explosiveness issue...

"Another test, described above, involved subjection of red
chips to methyl ethyl ketone solvent for tens of hours, with
agitation. The red material did swell but did not dissolve, and
a hard silicon-rich matrix remained after this procedure. On
the other hand, paint samples in the same exposure to MEK
solvent became limp and showed significant dissolution, as
expected since MEK is a paint solvent."


Page 21, Harrit et al. (Revised Feb 10, 2009)

Has this ever been discussed? And if so, is there a decent thread which I could be linked to s'il te plait?

Since we don't know where Jones got his samples this discussion is moot.

We do know that Jones made up the thermite theory years after 911 so your task is to show that thermite and 911 were ever associated before Jones mentioned it.
 
The upcoming National Geographic program described in this other thread should be of interest to those reading and/or posting in this thread.
 
<snip>

As for paint, here's what Jones rebukes, which is reverbarated by these bloggers in addition to the explosiveness issue...

"Another test, described above, involved subjection of red
chips to methyl ethyl ketone solvent for tens of hours, with
agitation. The red material did swell but did not dissolve, and
a hard silicon-rich matrix remained after this procedure. On
the other hand, paint samples in the same exposure to MEK
solvent became limp and showed significant dissolution, as
expected since MEK is a paint solvent."


Page 21, Harrit et al. (Revised Feb 10, 2009)

Has this ever been discussed? And if so, is there a decent thread which I could be linked to s'il te plait?

Ryan already mentioned the analysis by Frédéric Henry-Couannier, who posts as Henryco at JREF. You can read about his ideas here.

Also check this out:

http://zelikow.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/norwegian-state-radio-initiates-public-debate-on-911-truth

No time to get into details, but it should provide you w/some further food for thought regarding chip composition and characteristics.

The main observation by Henryco that I would point out is that MEK really DID dissolve Dr. Jones' chips, although Jones denies this....but clearly the organic materials were dissolved.....

Jones is dancing around that point, rather desperately I think..
 
It's posts like this that put me in mind of Steve's '1000 paid Shills'.

I know, you know and the viewing public know that no fires requiring oxygen could have burned down in the pile. And all fires require outside oxygen. Everybody knows that covering a burning pan of oil with a heavy cloth douses the flames by depriving the fire of oxygen so there is no chance at all of fires burning deep in the compacted mass of the pile.

I am not too interested in hearing about the coal seam in Nebraska or whereever it is that can burn forever with very little oxygen. Plainly there was no coal seam deep in the pile. Unless you know differently of course ? At this stage no debunker claim would surprise me.

So, Bull, I mean....Bill, can you please explain to me what firefighters in florida refer to as swamp fires?? These are fires that burn underground for MONTHS upon MONTHS!!

Also, could you please explain to me why you think that the fire would not have sucked in O2 for anywhere else?? That pile was not air-tight, as you, and that one kid Subway boy, might think. I think Heiwa has the same failed ideas on fire and its properties.

I would LOVE to tear this to shreads. Its FUN!!
 
One thing I've wondered, and I really don't want the usual and typical responses, is: How do we know that the entire thing isn't simply made up? Debating the science rests on the premise that something was legitimately found in Jones' WTC dust samples.....right? Based on Mackey's info, I would be led to believe this(real find) is correct.

As for paint, here's what Jones rebukes, which is reverbarated by these bloggers in addition to the explosiveness issue... [MEK excuse reiterated]

We've discussed all of this to death. Just go to Google, type in "nanothermite MEK site:randi.org," and bask in the results.

Again, we know what he found is not thermite, nano or otherwise. His own results prove this. The energy content doesn't match. The elemental species don't match. The electron microscopy doesn't match. It's magnetic. He's showing you a picture of an apple while swearing profusely that it's really an orange, which is why nobody listens to him but the delusional.

Dr. Jones has also, since the paper came out, retrenched his claims on what the heck it was doing there if it was real in the first place. What he found is not enough thermite to cause any structural distress at all. If anything, it would have made the WTC stronger after ignition. So he's reduced to babbling about "igniters" for other, vast quantities of unspecified explosives, never mind that thermite would in fact be harder to ignite than those same explosives themselves...

Furthermore, as discussed before and as others have noted, MEK does not dissolve all paint. MEK also would dissolve some kinds of nanothermite. This isn't how you test to see if something is or is not paint. It's a hack move designed to impress the totally uneducated, and apparently in your case it succeeded.

We'll never know exactly what Dr. Jones has. He hasn't shared it with any neutral parties. The closest he's gotten to is Dr. Henry-Coannier, as I've already told you about, and those samples don't seem to match Dr. Jones's own claims.

I can't imagine any way for his claims to be more ludicrous or fraudulent. And if you can't see them for what they are, I have little hope for your progress.
 
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It kills me to read about eyewitnesses to pools of molten steel and then see the claim that there was no oxygen under the pile for fires to burn.

Any conditions that would allow eyewitnesses would of necessity have enough oxygen to support those eyewitnesses, much less a fire.
 
ImANiceGuy - followup quick post. Hope you will look at those links. The second one is obviously concerning the Norwegian scientists, namely 'Ola Nilsen, who is a nano-scientist at the University of Oslo'.

You should keep in mind that neither Jones nor Niels Harrit are recognized as experts in nano materials, particularly nanothermite.
Nor is anyone else on that paper, to my knowledge. I think this is a major shortcoming, as they really don't know enough about the materials they claim to have found.

Jones openly admits he has no idea how to make such materials. In retrospect this should bother serious observers, since he can't possibly know what he's talking about, by his own admission.
Harrit is certainly a trained and able chemist, but he again is relying on indirect references to these materials, as discussed at a 2001 conference and some papers.

Not one of the real experts mentioned in various papers or conferences, from any of the facilities mentioned, has been consulted or is a contributor to the Jones/Harrit paper.

This omission, IMHO, is a ridiculous lapse in basic competence on the part of this band of zealots. I mean, people who publish papers are not exactly in hiding, are they? In my view, anyway, one of the first things I would've done would be to send some chip samples to such experts as part of a preliminary inquiry - I don't think it would have been terribly difficult to confirm or eliminate the chips as being related to military nanothermite.

Truthers would argue, of course, that all the government scientists are 'in on it', which is absurd in the extreme - there is no proof whatsoever that there is any conspiracy, or any thermite or nanothermite for that matter, directed by the US government with regard to the WTC terror attack and disasters.

Sometimes smart, educated people believe stupid things. They just happen to be able to present their stupid ideas in more sophisticated ways than Joe Average.*

I strongly suspect that is the case with this Thermite/Thermate/nanothermite bafflegab.

*as Ryan Mackey has already pointed out, it is a fact that Jones, perhaps realizing that thin coatings of nanothermite couldn't possibly provide enough energy to demolish a steel building, has now offered that it might have been used as an igniter for conventional explosives. (see calculations by both Mr. Mackey and Dr. Greening on the subject).
You'll no doubt come to realize that Jones' theories are almost entirely discredited by their own internal inconsistencies and conflicts with established facts - we don't even need to discuss why conventional explosives could not have been used, I hope.
 
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I am not too interested in hearing about the coal seam in Nebraska or whereever it is that can burn forever with very little oxygen.

Maybe Bill would be interested to know that at least 4 subway tunnels fed oxygen to the WTC fire. That would be the PATH train from the West, the IND from the north, and the IRT from the South and North on the east side of the pile.

Each of the above consisted of parallel tubes and there might be more tunnels that I'm not aware of. They came in under the pile, which is exactly what you would want for your home furnace.
 
Maybe Bill would be interested to know that at least 4 subway tunnels fed oxygen to the WTC fire. That would be the PATH train from the West, the IND from the north, and the IRT from the South and North on the east side of the pile.

Each of the above consisted of parallel tubes and there might be more tunnels that I'm not aware of. They came in under the pile, which is exactly what you would want for your home furnace.

The Twin Towers were built in the 'huge concrete basin' of which the slurry walls were part. This was built to keep the water seepage from the nearby Hudson river out Did the subway trains go through those slurry walls to the outside ?
 
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The Twin Towers were built in the 'huge concrete basin' of which the slurry walls were part. Did the subway trains go through those slurry walls to the outside ?
Top scores for research go to ...

attachment.php
She said there is no thermite used on 911 to destroy the WTC complex; go fish.

What do the subway tunnels have to do with thermite that was not used on 911?

oops the path tracks in the bottom of the bathtub?
path.jpg
 
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
The Twin Towers were built in the 'huge concrete basin' of which the slurry walls were part. Did the subway trains go through those slurry walls to the outside ?

Some did. Some didn't. The "pile" vastly exceeded the area of the bathtub. All the tubes I've named fed the pile.
 
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Top scores for research go to ...

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15018&stc=1&d=1250674971[/qimg] She said there is no thermite used on 911 to destroy the WTC complex; go fish.

What do the subway tunnels have to do with thermite that was not used on 911?

Judy looks better every day.
 

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