Moderated Thermite: Was it there or not?

[beachnut]

Sure....give it no air at all and it will burn forever. Tell the energy companies.

little air, burn long time

lots of air, burn short time

Tarzan know fire...

You don't

Which brings us to thermite, it burns without air and it burns fast. So thermite burns for seconds, WTC ruble burns for months. Simple chemistry! Got to love chemistry.
Why are you unable to grasp reality?

 

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by bill smith
I don't deny that, but oxygen only on the outside of a compacted mass

Your "compacted mass" had rescue workers crawling all through it starting on 9/11 in attempt to find victims.

Your "compacted mass" had smoke coming out of it for weeks even with no open fire on the surface. When smoke rises from a fire, it sucks air in from below if it can. Tunnels provided air.

 

[bill smith]

Why are you so hostile and bitter towards basic science and chemistry? It doesn't help your understanding at all.

do you want to learn or not?

Do smouldering fires radiate a lot of heat ? Why do energy companies not use smouldering fires to produce electricity ? By your logic it would be a a far cheaper and cleaner method ? Failure to answer these questions convincingly will tell the reader why I do not place much faith in the teaching abiities of AAlienentity amongst some others here on the jref. This from long experience.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Think of the debris pile fires as a smaller version of this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ovJS1Em-6dg/Rfvvd8Ue0QI/AAAAAAAAFWc/WbnQJsH0dsk/s400/centralia1.jpg

Centralia, Pennsylvania is an example in which an underground coal fire ignited in 1962 is still burning after more than 40 years. As the coal below burned away, the ground above collapsed. Sinkholes and cracks opened up in various spots in the city. Roads split, making driving a hazardous task. The earth became so hot in places that falling snow immediately melted. During rainstorms, steam rose off the hot pavement as raindrops hit the ground. In some places, the ground temperature measured 750°F to 1,000°F.

 

[bill smith]

little air, burn long time

lots of air, burn short time

Tarzan know fire...

You don't

Which brings us to thermite, it burns without air and it burns fast. So thermite burns for seconds, WTC ruble burns for months. Simple chemistry! Got to love chemistry.
Why are you unable to grasp reality?

Whether the heat was caused by molten steel with or without added thermite the quantity of molten steel was no mere ten tons or so. No..we are talking in the thousands of tons. Maybe ten or fifteen thousand tons. Steel cools from the outside in and only a large well shielded quantity like this could have taken so long to cool despite the millions of gallons of water continuously pumped into the pile. One fireman said words to the effect 'we pumped lakes of water in there and it still burned'

 

[beachnut]

Do smouldering fires radiate a lot of heat ? Why do energy companies not use smouldering fires to produce electricity ? By your logic it would be a a far cheaper and cleaner method ? Failure to answer thes questions convincingly will tell the reader why I do not place much faith in the teaching abiities of AAlienentity amongst some others here on the jref. This from long experience.

Please stop making up junk ideas to go along with your ignorance on chemistry, energy, and reality.

Fuel is burned in the most efficient method for the job to be done. If a smoldering fire is most efficient they would use it, however this has nothing to do with the topic of the delusional scenario by Jones using thermite. Making up smart remarks would be great if they could transcend your massive lack of knowledge on the subject of fire, and burning materials.

The topic is thermite, try to relate your tangential questions to thermite. Your posts are only exposing your lack of knowledge.

... molten steel ...

You mean glowing, or melted flowing like a river? There was no thermite; Jones is a fraud.

... the quantity of molten steel was no mere ten tons or so. No..we are talking in the thousands of tons. Maybe ten or fifteen thousand tons. Steel cools from the outside in and only a large well shielded quantity like this could have taken so long to cool despite the millions of gallons of water continuously pumped into the pile. One fireman said words to the effect 'we pumped lakes of water in there and it still burned'

OMG - you posted melted steel nonsense. Your posts are getting to be total nonsense.

 

[tsig]

Is there any special reason why this drawing is such terrible quality ?

Bill the special shill.

 

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by bill smith

... despite the millions of gallons of water continuously pumped into the pile. One fireman said words to the effect 'we pumped lakes of water in there and it still burned'

Bill really, really has no clue as to how many acres "the pile" was. By my calculation it was roughly the size of 24 (American) football fields.

I saw the pile.

As far as pumping water goes, it was cut way back late on 9/11 when the rescue workers realized they might drown the people that were still be alive under the debris (which is more evidence that the pile wasn't as "compacted as Bill believes) . Water was used selectivity for the first couple weeks. Nobody was alive longer than that.

Many sources for that, but I'll give you Nine Months at Ground Zero By Stout, Vitchers, & Gray

How many other things can Bill get wrong?

 

[leftysergeant]

Do smouldering fires radiate a lot of heat ? Why do energy companies not use smouldering fires to produce electricity ? By your logic it would be a a far cheaper and cleaner method ?

Because it burns at a lower termperature and produces a lot more wierd chemical by-products.

Failure to answer these questions convincingly will tell the reader why I do not place much faith in the teaching abiities of AAlienentity amongst some others here on the jref.

It is not a lack of "faith," but of ability to learn when people with morte real-world experience try to teach you.

This from long experience.

Had any of your experience to do with fire fighting, I am sure you would make far fewer stupid remarks like the above.

 

[dtugg]

Whether the heat was caused by molten steel with or without added thermite the quantity of molten steel was no mere ten tons or so. No..we are talking in the thousands of tons. Maybe ten or fifteen thousand tons. Steel cools from the outside in and only a large well shielded quantity like this could have taken so long to cool despite the millions of gallons of water continuously pumped into the pile. One fireman said words to the effect 'we pumped lakes of water in there and it still burned'

You're insane.

 

[triforcharity]

I don't deny that, but oxygen only on the outside of a compacted mass (as I'm sure you will agree it had to be) will only burn what's on the outside. Surely you're not going to say that that was enough to account for a three-month inferno sufficient to melt steel and heat the ground 70 feet above to 1500 degrees ? 'enough to melt the guy's boots'

It was not entirely compacted. As a fire burns, it will create its own winds, even a small fire. It will pull oxygen from any source that it needs to.

I can assure you, that if we were not pumping thousands of gallons of water in there a day, it would have burned for many more months. It did NOT melt any steel. This has been discussed to death. Yes, it melted our boots. Even a small fire will melt those boots. They are not fire proof, just resistant.

 

[bill smith]

Because it burns at a lower termperature and produces a lot more wierd chemical by-products.





It is not a lack of "faith," but of ability to learn when people with morte real-world experience try to teach you.



Had any of your experience to do with fire fighting, I am sure you would make far fewer stupid remarks like the above.

I think they'd probably find a way to filter those by-products if the figures were right. (as they would be)

Interesting that you agree that smouldering fires produce a lot less heat. I assume we can now rule them out as being the cause of the enormous heat in the pile. The heat that 'melted the guy's boots in a few hours ' 70 feet up on the surface.

'Morte' was a good choice of word to the describe the condition of current 9/11 Truth debunking.

 

[triforcharity]

Sure....give it no air at all and it will burn forever. Tell the energy companies.

No, give it a little air, and it will smolder for quite some time. Give it lots of air, it will burn much faster, much hotter. Ie:Blast Furnace.

Did you google swamp fires by chance?? You should.

 

[triforcharity]

Are you saying that the mass was nt really compacted ? That the half-million tons of a collapsed 110 story skyscraper compacted into only six basement levels would not be tightly compacted ? Or are you saying that most of the rubble was outside on the heaps ?

Bill, the pile that I spent many weeks on was certainly not 100% in the basement. To assume that is retarded at best. If I recall correctly, that pile was quite high, maybe as much as ~8 storeys. I do not recall exactly how tall it was, but it wasn't in the basement. Maybe someone can provide that high-def picture that someone took. Some NASA or something like that.

 

[triforcharity]

Do smouldering fires radiate a lot of heat ? Why do energy companies not use smouldering fires to produce electricity ? By your logic it would be a a far cheaper and cleaner method ? Failure to answer these questions convincingly will tell the reader why I do not place much faith in the teaching abiities of AAlienentity amongst some others here on the jref. This from long experience.

This would not be effecient, because the amount of heat would not be near as much as an intense fire will.

I have spent years teaching Fire Science at the Florida Fire College, and have been a firefighter for over 15 years. I think I might know what I am talking about.

 

[triforcharity]

Whether the heat was caused by molten steel with or without added thermite the quantity of molten steel was no mere ten tons or so. No..we are talking in the thousands of tons. Maybe ten or fifteen thousand tons. Steel cools from the outside in and only a large well shielded quantity like this could have taken so long to cool despite the millions of gallons of water continuously pumped into the pile. One fireman said words to the effect 'we pumped lakes of water in there and it still burned'

Where is the HUGE chunk of molten steel that you refer to?? I have not seen it, nor has ANYONE else. The problem was by the time the water got down to the fire, it had turned to steam. Steam is not a good firefighting tool.

Yes, we did pump millions of gallons, but not like you think. If we could have pumped MILLIONS of gallons in over the course of 1 hour, or even 6 hours. We couldn't do that. It just wasn't possible.

 

[triforcharity]

I see that you have come back to the boots thing. Our boots are not designed to be exposed to direct heat (hot metal) for an extended period of time. They are designed for working in a fire, then getting a break. A normal firefighter will only be in direct heat contact for about 30-40 minutes. Not hours and hours like they were exposed to on 9/11 and following.

 

[bill smith]

Where is the HUGE chunk of molten steel that you refer to?? I have not seen it, nor has ANYONE else. The problem was by the time the water got down to the fire, it had turned to steam. Steam is not a good firefighting tool.



Yes, we did pump millions of gallons, but not like you think. If we could have pumped MILLIONS of gallons in over the course of 1 hour, or even 6 hours. We couldn't do that. It just wasn't possible.

That's really interesting. You agree then that the heat source was mostly at the bottom of the pile ?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Where is the HUGE chunk of molten steel that you refer to?? I have not seen it, nor has ANYONE else.

Probably this compressed block of concrete:
LINKY
source

They seem to have forgotten that while concrete itself doesn't rust, the rebar and decking used in it for reinforcement does, and it often "runs" on the surface of the concrete similar to these:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0FxJsNhWqLY/Si5NF8wwqwI/AAAAAAAAAZE/pfs1KIwoTfs/s400/concrete_rust.JPG

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/417097410_2e655cdea6.jpg?v=0

You'll probably recognize it... but these people tend to use the same things over and over.

 

[triforcharity]

That's really interesting. You agree then that the heat source was mostly at the bottom of the pile ?

No, I do not. Not at all. There was fire over many parts of the pile. Some high in the pile, some low. By then end of the first month, most of the fires were in the bottom by that time. And even though the fire is out, it still takes time for heat to cool, especially large amounts of it.