There Will be Blood: Boston's Straight Pride Parade.

[Checkmite]

Do you think "brown people" are the only ones being turned away and this only happens at the southern border?

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones being subject to enforcement raids inside the US.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only kinds of people whose citizenship status has automatically been checked during/after contact with police for completely unrelated circumstances, including as witnesses and victims of crime.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones who have been randomly stopped in traffic and subject to citizenship checks by certain law enforcement agencies.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones subject to incarceration in concentration camps while immigration proceedings are being undertaken.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been arrested and deported after honorably serving in the United States military, including in foreign deployments.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people whose legal citizenship proof has been rejected by immigration authorities, resulting in their incarceration and deportation despite being U.S. citizens.

 

[smartcooky]

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones being subject to enforcement raids inside the US.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only kinds of people whose citizenship status has automatically been checked during/after contact with police for completely unrelated circumstances, including as witnesses and victims of crime.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones who have been randomly stopped in traffic and subject to citizenship checks by certain law enforcement agencies.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones subject to incarceration in concentration camps while immigration proceedings are being undertaken.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been arrested and deported after honorably serving in the United States military, including in foreign deployments.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people whose legal citizenship proof has been rejected by immigration authorities, resulting in their incarceration and deportation despite being U.S. citizens.

Additionally,

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have have their children and babies ripped away from them at the border.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been incarcerated in concreted floored wire cages under conditions where they are denied the most basic of human dignity, and effectively forced live in their own filth.

 

[Checkmite]

Additionally,

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have have their children and babies ripped away from them at the border.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been incarcerated in concreted floored wire cages under conditions where they are denied the most basic of human dignity, and effectively forced live in their own filth.

Continuing:

"Brown people", specifically young children, including some too young to understand what's going on, too young to actually speak, or even too young to physically stand up, are the only children being forced to represent themselves at immigration trials.

"Brown people" are the only ones who have been deported while their children are adopted out to foster families in the US, and whose pleas for their children to be returned to them are rejected by US courts.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Am I taking crazy pills, or could our country still be in an unacceptable state of authoritarian fascism without having Nazi style death camps?

Every authoritarian state is unique, and certain elements may not be present in each.

I doubt we'd have camps with mass killings and ovens. Today's fascist is much more likely to utilized our overly aggressive police state and abysmal prison system to imprison or chase off our "undesirables".

A fascist state without a modern Holocaust is still an extremely undesirable outcome. Genocide is the most extreme failure, but by no means is that the sole measuring stick.

Sure, the hardest edge of the far right is still a fairly small portion of the public. But willing enablers of their policies exist in droves. Plenty of "mainstream" right wingers are deeply suspicious of foreigners, unsympathetic to the needs of the disadvantaged, are terrified of white Christians losing hegemony, and crave decisive "action" to address these concerns. These people might not be willing to draft the extremely malicious policies that result in misery for large swaths of people, but they may be willing to rationalize or ignore that misery to achieve their own political goals. A fascist state doesn't require a nation of Stephen Millers, it just requires a citizenry willing to tolerate Stephen Miller. That all adds up to something very dark, and it's not panic mongering to point that out.

 

[Baylor]

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones being subject to enforcement raids inside the US.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only kinds of people whose citizenship status has automatically been checked during/after contact with police for completely unrelated circumstances, including as witnesses and victims of crime.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones who have been randomly stopped in traffic and subject to citizenship checks by certain law enforcement agencies.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones subject to incarceration in concentration camps while immigration proceedings are being undertaken.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been arrested and deported after honorably serving in the United States military, including in foreign deployments.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people whose legal citizenship proof has been rejected by immigration authorities, resulting in their incarceration and deportation despite being U.S. citizens.

Additionally,

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have have their children and babies ripped away from them at the border.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been incarcerated in concreted floored wire cages under conditions where they are denied the most basic of human dignity, and effectively forced live in their own filth.

Continuing:

"Brown people", specifically young children, including some too young to understand what's going on, too young to actually speak, or even too young to physically stand up, are the only children being forced to represent themselves at immigration trials.

"Brown people" are the only ones who have been deported while their children are adopted out to foster families in the US, and whose pleas for their children to be returned to them are rejected by US courts.

And yet they just won't stop coming.

 

[smartcooky]

And yet they just won't stop coming.

...and nor should they!

Just like every other civilised country in the world, the USA has an agreed-to legal and moral obligation to take in refugees and asylum seekers. They even boast about it on their so-called "Statue of Liberty"

The only reason they don't meet that obligation is because you have a racist and white supremacist scumbag as a President - one who has legally sanctioned the inhumane treatment of "brown people" in order to make himself look good to your friends in his racist base.

 

[Baylor]

The only reason they don't meet that obligation is because you have a racist and white supremacist scumbag as a President - one who has legally sanctioned the inhumane treatment of "brown people" in order to make himself look good to your friends in his racist base.

And yet they just won't stop coming.

 

[Checkmite]

And yet they just won't stop coming.

I understand that you're upset about what seems like an endless stream of people coming to what you think of as "your" country, who look and speak and think so differently from you. Being surrounded by people who are visibly "different" certainly can be confusing or even intimidating to someone who is used to living in a homogeneous environment. But sooner or later you'll have to come to terms with the fact that a majority of the population of your country is okay with these immigrants coming, and wants them to come.

 

[Thermal]

...Which is a new plan. At this point, your argument seems to be that most of these people are just LARPers who can't actually accomplish their goals, so it's not worth worrying about them;

No, my argument is still what I've said it is. If you like to walk things around, I have a dog here that would like to make your acquaintance.

I have said over and over that I don't think the majority have political goals. Whether or not they could achieve them is irrelevant if they don't have them. That is my objection to the nazi label; nazis were primarily fascists seeking political power. The white power guys don't seem oriented to that at all (with minuscule exceptions). I don't think they want the White House in the USA, for instance. Their smaller brains have smaller objectives.

By way of analogy, you are arguing that all/most white supremacist groups are ultimately fascist ethnostate nazis at heart and should be treated as such. Is Senator Sanders ultimately a communist? Is a jaywalker ultimately an insurrectionist? Having one trait does not necessarily mean you harbor the extreme at your core. A racist uncle at Thanksgiving is not ultimately the SS. I think your argument is everyone of these guys is a little Hitler just waiting for the right moment to strike. It's like some rejected Doctor Who plot. Some are just racist dingleberries, nothing more.

...what we should be really worried about are the stochastic terrorists.

Well, yeah. More of a live threat than the Incelebration marchers, yeah.

The thing is, those two groups you seem to think are different have largely the same goals, use the same rhetoric, and listen to the same people. Mason among them, who started as a bog-standard Rockwell acolyte, then shifted to promoting stochastic terrorism as a way of starting a race war and accomplishing the same basic goal that Spencer talks about. They want the same thing, Mason is just the one that's more upfront with his plan, by design (Spencer's goal is normalizing the movement and making it palatable to average people).

I don't think there are two groups. I think there are a lot more than two. By far the smallest, way over there, playing with themselves in the corner, are actual nazis. Our mighty foe Mason is...working at Kmart, living in an apartment with multiple convictions, according to your podcast? This is the commander of the largest white supremacist group in the country, the New Hitler? Yeah, I don't think I'm underestimating the fascist movement. Looks about as flaccid as you get.

I guess fundamentally we just see this ideology differently. You're framing the "groups" as separate things and I don't think they are. To me, it doesn't matter if you're not a member of the AWD or some other faction that has committed terrorist attacks; saying you want the same goals and endorsing the message isn't different in any functionally meaningful way. That's not histrionics. Either way, you're supporting violent action for the ultimate goal of creating a fascist ethnostate, and I can't see that as inconsequential, because it's how people are being radicalized into the thing you do consider a problem. That's the way those groups work now.

To highlight our differences: some people walk around the block for an evening's exercise. Some people train for ultramarathons and Ironman Tris. Not everyone harbors the extreme in their core, or even desires it.

 

[Thermal]

So if I summarize your argument, it comes to:

You know that there are some that DO want cleansing\genocide. You also believe that the majority do NOT want genocide\cleansing. You do NOT believe these people are a threat because they don't have the ability or numbers to do any major damage. In your opinion these people should be watched, but largely ignored.

Do I have that correct?

Close. Very close. Assuming you mean the minority group in the second part, I don't think they have the numbers, ability, smarts, support, conviction, stamina, or even charm to carry out their objectives. But under no circumstances should they be ignored. One lone whacko with a gun is deadly serious, as we see in the news every day. Never, ever ignore them. Just don't lump every MAGA hat wearer in with the Rise of the Reich.

RE the actual, genuine nazi or near nazis: be ready to drop the hammer on them at a seconds notice. Never ignore them, or give them an inch more than they are Constitutionally entitled to. But until they cross that line...well, we do value freedom of speech, even in these catch-22 situations.

 

[Thermal]

Also, Cavemonster started another thread on this topic called Proud Boys and Nazis and Alt-right Oh My in SI&CI. Since we are drifting off topic here, meet you over there for this discussion.

 

[Thermal]

And yet they just won't stop coming.

So did my ancestors. So, I'm guessing, did yours. I don't fault anyone for wanting a better life, and a brighter future for their children. And nation as mighty as the US should welcome them as best we are able. My grandmother fled Germany when a certain party was rising to power. The Greatest Nation in the World opened it's arms.

It's a fair argument to weed out the criminals and 'moochers' though.

It's not a fair argument that the country that brought my grandmom through Ellis Island should set up concentration camps and cage children alone

 

[smartcooky]

So did my ancestors. So, I'm guessing, did yours. I don't fault anyone for wanting a better life, and a brighter future for their children. And nation as mighty as the US should welcome them as best we are able. My grandmother fled Germany when a certain party was rising to power. The Greatest Nation in the World opened it's arms.

It's a fair argument to weed out the criminals and 'moochers' though.

It's not a fair argument that the country that brought my grandmom through Ellis Island should set up concentration camps and cage children alone

Yeah, but your grandmother was probably not one of the mud people. If Mexican's were white conservatives, people like Baylor would have no objection to them entering the country.

 

[Baylor]

I understand that you're upset about what seems like an endless stream of people coming to what you think of as "your" country, who look and speak and think so differently from you. Being surrounded by people who are visibly "different" certainly can be confusing or even intimidating to someone who is used to living in a homogeneous environment. But sooner or later you'll have to come to terms with the fact that a majority of the population of your country is okay with these immigrants coming, and wants them to come.

How pathetically pretentious.

 

[Baylor]

So did my ancestors. So, I'm guessing, did yours. I don't fault anyone for wanting a better life, and a brighter future for their children. And nation as mighty as the US should welcome them as best we are able. My grandmother fled Germany when a certain party was rising to power. The Greatest Nation in the World opened it's arms.

Okay. So what? This wasn't even what was being argued. This is a common tactic among boomers here. Once they've reached a dead end, they pretend that an entirely different discussion was taking place.

We were discussing the alleged mistreatment of illegal aliens. People don't go to great lengths to be abused. Jews didn't travel thousands of miles on foot just to live in Nazi occupied territory. Internet histrionics mean nothing. Actions speak louder than pseudointellectual message boards.

 

[Thermal]

Okay. So what? This wasn't even what was being argued. This is a common tactic among boomers here. Once they've reached a dead end, they pretend that an entirely different discussion was taking place.

We were discussing the alleged mistreatment of illegal aliens. People don't go to great lengths to be abused. Jews didn't travel thousands of miles on foot just to live in Nazi occupied territory. Internet histrionics mean nothing. Actions speak louder than pseudointellectual message boards.

Okay. They keep coming. Of course they do. Even receiving poor treatment at the border, assuming they have the savvy to be aware of that, they are still incentivized to escape from worse abuse in their homeland.

Why would that justify locking their children in cages and denying them toothbrushes? No matter what drove them here, we are still the United States. It has been said that a nation can be judged by how it treats the most vulnerable.

BTW, my parents were boomers, not me.

 

[dann]

Who exactly is a Nazi/Racist is the problem we have here.
I am conviced, from the tone of their posts, that some people would define as a Nazi or racist anybody who is not on the left wing of the political spectrum.

Can I get a specific example (a quote with link to it) of this "tone"?

I don't think you can. When dudalb is convinced that ought to be good enough for the rest of us ...

 

[uke2se]

I'd have a lot of interview searching to do to prove that President Trump does not advocate, say, puppy raping. Spencer and his cronies have very publicly affirmed that they do not endorse any type of killing. But proving a negative is notoriously difficult. I'll concede that I am not willing to interview-mine to give you an example.

Richard Spencer wants "peaceful ethnic cleansing" That's good, right?

This guy, you mean?

https://jeffschoep.com/jeffschoep/

Soooo...this is the guy whose beliefs you want to examine? Doesn't he not really qualify, not identifying as a nazi anymore?

He led the largest nazi group n the US...with a national membership of about 400. It's collapsing now, under the leadership of a black man (great guy). Yeah, not exactly quaking in my boots if this is what you are in fear of.

I thought it was his beliefs we were going to analyze, not the fact that he's jumped ship. Was he or was he not a proper Nazi? He says he was. What do you think?

(Please note that we're not talking a distant past here, but less than a year.)

Who is that? What credible professionals claim to correctly analyze the psyche of the writer of a few anonymous postings? Oh, and make sure they say the analysis can be carried out by someone who presents no credentials or expertise in the subject. You know, like the poster in question does.

Nope.

When your posting style is to be arrogant and condescending, peppered with veiled insults, refusing to engage honestly, and inevitably flouncing when challenged, you don't really have a lot of room to accuse others of insults.

Then why do you?

 

[smartcooky]

How pathetically pretentious.

Actually, he wasn't being pretentious, he was being condescending - towards you... and IMO, it was thoroughly deserved..

 

[ponderingturtle]

And yet they just won't stop coming.

Like the dumb jews on the st louis trying to flee germany. Fools.