There go the Europeans again

[geni]

Remind me never to count on Europeans in a pinch; and I trust the Iraqis will also remember a few years from now when same hypocrits try to send their salesmen back.

You don't appear to be in a pinch you existance as a nation isn't threataned and neither is your status as a super power. A few thousand troops either way doesn't really matter.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again

Bull. They (some of them) did the absolute minimum they could get away with. They believed the same info that the US did and they have no regard for larger issues, no concern for "petty" things like encouraging democracy, are perfectly happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable, and in the end behave like prissy little brats, like you.

The "absolute minimum they could get away with"!!!???

Get away with what? Avoiding a spanking from big bad uncle sam for not playing war?

And I wouldnt talk too loud about being "happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable" you stupid yankee imperialst pig!

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: There go the Europeans again

You don't appear to be in a pinch you existance as a nation isn't threataned and neither is your status as a super power. A few thousand troops either way doesn't really matter.

I guess you make my point. To these people it's all trivia and they don't give a damn.

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again

The "absolute minimum they could get away with"!!!???

Get away with what? Avoiding a spanking from big bad uncle sam for not playing war?

And I wouldnt talk too loud about being "happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable" you stupid yankee imperialst pig!

You show your hand too easily. That's precisely the point I was making about attitudes, although in the case of Britain (with some obvious exceptions), they have always had more balls and brains than most over there.

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again

I guess you make my point. To these people it's all trivia and they don't give a damn.

Well of course it is. You are trying to occupy an area which Britian manged to occupy and set up a reasonably stable state on it's own. You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description.

 

[Elind]

So, Elind, because you were fooled by what were, frankly, dubious claims by the current administration then everybody was fooled. And because you think by means of slogans ("bringing democracy!") instead of carefully considered plans, so does everyone else. And because some of those other people (ie, the vast majority of the rest of the world) is now refusing to subsidize your delusions to even the limited extent that they used to they're now cowardly jerks?

Your world must be a wonderful, brightly colored place.

And I thought you were the one with fantasy colored glasses.

Ask a few Iraqis what they think of you and those who turn tail with you. You might be surprised at what you hear. We will all have to face what history concludes in the not too distant future. I happen to think that you will have nothing to take pride in since all you seem to wish for is to see the USA fail. IF that should happen however, it would be in no small measure due to the spinelessness of so many who would not be free today but for the US; but that is ancient history to children these days, is it not?

 

[AWPrime]

But, no matter what happens be it good or bad, the allies will always remember that they were lied to by the US.


I have said that no WMD stockpiles would be found and I was proven right and I am not the only one.


If only the US had the guts to use the humitarian reason as sole reason......

 

[Elind]

But, no matter what happens be it good or bad, the allies will always remember that they were lied to by the US.


I have said that no WMD stockpiles would be found and I was proven right and I am not the only one.


If only the US had the guts to use the humitarian reason as sole reason......

?? You can call it lies and ignore all the other issues if it helps your excuses to do nothing, and you can pretend you have no humanitarian obligations to help decent Iraqis gain freedom just because you don't like the USA; and I can call you spineless.

Seems fair doesn't it?

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again

Well of course it is. You are trying to occupy an area which Britian manged to occupy and set up a reasonably stable state on it's own.

All of the West were responsible for "creating" Iraq, and responsible for the mess that followed, which I also think implies a responsibility to make corrections, however late they are, and in whatever circumstances they became possible. But to whitewash it all by describing pre war Iraq as a "reasonably stable state" is putting your head in the sand. Try asking hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis, Iraninans or Kuwaitis what they think of that "stable" state and then ask yourself what you think of your world view, regardless of what you think of the US.



You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description.

?? I don't get the relevance today.

 

[kimiko]

You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description.

?? I don't get the relevance today. [/B]

The relevance is that we haven't accomplished today what Britain was able to do some time ago with much less. What are we doing whining about needing other countries to help when we don't actually care what they think?

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again

All of the West were responsible for "creating" Iraq, and responsible for the mess that followed, which I also think implies a responsibility to make corrections, however late they are, and in whatever circumstances they became possible. But to whitewash it all by describing pre war Iraq as a "reasonably stable state" is putting your head in the sand. Try asking hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis, Iraninans or Kuwaitis what they think of that "stable" state and then ask yourself what you think of your world view, regardless of what you think of the US.

The country was stable for 26 years after we left. That was a peroid that covered WW2 and the creation of Israel.

?? I don't get the relevance today.

What you are trying to do is triva. At worst it is a forien adventure gone wrong. Big deal. See what happened to Italy in Etheopia (although the italian would probably rather you didn't), Britian in afganistan or France in most of it's empire. None of these destoryed the county involved any yet you describe this as a pinch.

 

[geni]

?? You can call it lies and ignore all the other issues if it helps your excuses to do nothing, and you can pretend you have no humanitarian obligations to help decent Iraqis gain freedom just because you don't like the USA; and I can call you spineless.

Seems fair doesn't it?

Humanitarian obligations? Better send some troops to the DRC then. People are getting eaten there. The troops can join the French ones who are trying to keep the some kind of order there.

 

[H3LL]

Remembering the unwavering support the UK had from the USA during the Suez crisis, I'm amazed that they are still in Iraq.

Americans have short memories. It seems the Europeans do not.

As some Americans seem to think that Europeans all sat down supping tea or wine while they sorted out those nasty Germans and Japanese all alone, maybe they think it's time their rhetoric matched reality.

 

[Elind]

The relevance is that we haven't accomplished today what Britain was able to do some time ago with much less. What are we doing whining about needing other countries to help when we don't actually care what they think?

That's not a relevant response, with respect.

Britain may have been the major player a long time ago, but it was hardly alone in formulating the borders in the Middle East. Secondly what it did then has no relevance to what is being done today, except that today is a consequence of yesterday.

I don't think we, I, are whining. We are telling it like it is, and it's not pretty. We do care what others think, but the objective is not love of Europeans, which will never be achieved. The objective is for Europeans to recognize that they can't live in ivory towers anymore and hope the bad guys won't see them, and that they can't do squat on their own if they think they want to influence change in the world without the US. Of course many opinions expressed here have no desire to influence anything and are happy to keep doing business as usual. They know that if things ever got really bad, they can always count on the US to save their asses regardless.

 

[Ziggurat]

Americans have short memories. It seems the Europeans do not.

As some Americans seem to think that Europeans all sat down supping tea or wine while they sorted out those nasty Germans and Japanese all alone, maybe they think it's time their rhetoric matched reality.

What I seem to remember from history - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that those nasty Germans WERE Europeans. WWII was still largely an inter-European war we had to step in to end. For the second time. Europe couldn't figure out how to live together peacefully until American GI's made them.

Do Europeans have longer memories than Americans? Perhaps, but they seem amazingly selective memories.

 

[geni]

That's not a relevant response, with respect.

Britain may have been the major player a long time ago, but it was hardly alone in formulating the borders in the Middle East. Secondly what it did then has no relevance to what is being done today, except that today is a consequence of yesterday.

I has a lot of relivance since Britan forumalted and carried out a sucessful exit startergy that left a reasonably stable state in it's wake

I don't think we, I, are whining. We are telling it like it is, and it's not pretty.

Let just say since I have a reasonable knowlage of human history I find the above very amusing

We do care what others think, but the objective is not love of Europeans, which will never be achieved. The objective is for Europeans to recognize that they can't live in ivory towers anymore and hope the bad guys won't see them,

We aren't. However invading Iraq has nothing to do with this.

and that they can't do squat on their own if they think they want to influence change in the world without the US.

See DRC for why this opion is dead wrong. I seem to recall something about Sierra leone and Ivory Coast as well. There doesn't seem to be much US involvement in these cases.

Of course many opinions expressed here have no desire to influence anything and are happy to keep doing business as usual. They know that if things ever got really bad, they can always count on the US to save their asses regardless.

Really? Right now it is extreamly questionable whether the US has the militry capacity to do anything much.

 

[H3LL]

Do Europeans have longer memories than Americans? Perhaps, but they seem amazingly selective memories.

As do you.

Maybe you have forgotten that Hitlers Germany declared war on America. Maybe you feel it would have been appropriate to ignore this but were just stepping in to help out.

So kind.

 

[Elind]

Originally posted by geni

I has a lot of relivance since Britan forumalted and carried out a sucessful exit startergy that left a reasonably stable state in it's wake. Let just say since I have a reasonable knowlage of human history I find the above very amusing
.

Ther's that "Reasonably stable" again. And you call that a knowledge of history? Amusing? Perhaps it is.






We aren't. However invading Iraq has nothing to do with this.


Has nothing to do with ...? It has everything to do with correcting some earlier screwups, unless you happen to be one of those who think democracy has no ground among Arabs and Muslims?


See DRC for why this opion is dead wrong. I seem to recall something about Sierra leone and Ivory Coast as well. There doesn't seem to be much US involvement in these cases.

You compare a few minor police actions within what are civil wars with the last two Gulf wars, or Afghanistan, or even the Balkans (the latter did have the support, mostly, that was called for, but again, could not have been accomplished without the USA).? That is not flattering to your sense of proportion.




Really? Right now it is extreamly questionable whether the US has the militry capacity to do anything much.

Tell us again about your knowledge of things historical, and military. I'm not sure I read it right.

No one denies the costs or the pressures it, Iraq, imposes but if you think that is all there is you are simply ignorant. Tell us instead why those listed Europeans claimed to have agreed to support the effort, but provided piddling numbers of forces (mostly not armed) and even then needed to rely on the US to transport much of them. I think it's shameful.

 

[Ziggurat]

Really? Right now it is extreamly questionable whether the US has the militry capacity to do anything much.

The US has 12 aircraft carrier groups. None of them is tied down in Iraq. Yes, we are about at the limit of what we can commit for long-term occupation of a country with ground troops. But in terms of raw firepower, we've still got a lot available, and more importantly, globally deployable. Europe has no comparable ability to project the military strength it has. Hell, they couldn't even handle a festering military problem in their own back yard (Yugoslavia). Where is France's JDAM? Where is Germany's? They don't exist.

There's a reason that the US military was the most significant first-responder to the Tsunami disaster, and bore most of the logistic load in providing aid to remote locations. Europe was hardly on the scene (the French aircraft carrier didn't arrive until several weeks after the disaster, compared to only a few days for a US carrier). The Canadian military wasn't on the scene at ALL, because they didn't even have the capability to transport response teams to the region, even by plane.

When European military forces can take a genuine lead in solving a major crisis, ANY major crisis (even humanitarian), I'll consider them to be grownups who don't need an adult US to make sure they don't get in trouble. Right now, most of the continent is spoiled and resentful adolescents who resent their own growing and self-imposed irrelevance.

 

[kimiko]

I don't think we, I, are whining. We are telling it like it is, and it's not pretty. We do care what others think, but the objective is not love of Europeans, which will never be achieved. The objective is for Europeans to recognize that they can't live in ivory towers anymore and hope the bad guys won't see them, and that they can't do squat on their own if they think they want to influence change in the world without the US. Of course many opinions expressed here have no desire to influence anything and are happy to keep doing business as usual. They know that if things ever got really bad, they can always count on the US to save their asses regardless.

No, we do not care what they think. We care only that they agree with what we think, otherwise, they are labeled spineless/appeasers/etc. Likewise, they have objectives beyond earning the love of the US; it is far more intelligent for them to sit back and let the US handle the entire Iraq situation since we have an apparent agenda in the region, and won't wait for others to join before acting. Saves them money and lives.

Europeans do not live in ivory towers; there are still many alive who witnessed WWII. We, on the other hand, have lived blissfully protected by two oceans and peaceful neighbors, and have not had disputes with aggressive ethnicities on the same landmass within the collective memory.

Not acting was not a problem, as Saddamy didn't have the capability to do anything to them anyway. In fact, the only thing I see any cooperative European country as having gotten out of their support is dead troops and a terrorist train attack. Hardly worthwhile.