There are no material objects

[dafydd]

How do you differentiate between the Material and the Immaterial?

Easy. The immaterial does not exist except in the fevered imaginations of mystics

 

[Dancing David]

What? So when I die reality will disappear? That will come as a shock to the living. Typical of your sort to indulge in semantics. I just get on with my life.

dafydd, you may not like this. perceptual events are real, their validity may be suspect, but they are real.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Is it just me or does this whole "Everything only exists in my own head" crap sound like some kind of ego boosting fantasy?

 

[dafydd]

Is it just me or does this whole "Everything only exists in my own head" crap sound like some kind of ego boosting fantasy?

I never said that everything exists only in my own head. I believe the opposite to be true. Everything will still be here when I am brown bread. I was referring to my experiences under the influence of LSD. I do not believe that they happened 'out there' in the real world. I'm quite a shy person, boosting my ego does not come naturally to me.

 

[dafydd]

dafydd, you may not like this. perceptual events are real, their validity may be suspect, but they are real.

Even perceptual events experienced under 600 micrograms of Owsley's Orange Sunshine?

 

[yy2bggggs]

Even perceptual events experienced under 600 micrograms of Owsley's Orange Sunshine?

Depends--did you really take 600 micrograms of Owsley's Orange Sunshine? If so, then yes, those experience were real. If not, then you had no such experiences.

Anything you actually do experience is experienced in reality. Reality is the only place you can experience things.

And yes, that is exactly what they are talking about.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Ok, but I can't watch repeats of QI on my carpet. I could sit on the carpet while watching

Yes, but you could sit on the TV and stare at the carpet.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Depends--did you really take 600 micrograms of Owsley's Orange Sunshine? If so, then yes, those experience were real. If not, then you had no such experiences.

Anything you actually do experience is experienced in reality. Reality is the only place you can experience things.

And yes, that is exactly what they are talking about.

Not to be pseudo-profound, but there is a difference between, "I really experienced something" (of course people who hallucinate really do have those experiences), and, "I experienced something and it really exists apart from me." (Hallucinations do not exist outside the mind of the person having them.)

 

[dafydd]

Depends--did you really take 600 micrograms of Owsley's Orange Sunshine? If so, then yes, those experience were real. If not, then you had no such experiences.

Anything you actually do experience is experienced in reality. Reality is the only place you can experience things.

And yes, that is exactly what they are talking about.

I did take it. I sampled his White Lightning and Blue Cheer too. I suppose it all depends upon what you mean by real. My first trip happened because somebody gave me a tab of Blue Cheer and I rather foolishly swallowed it in our local pub. At one point during the evening the landlord was washing the glasses and stacking them on the bar. I saw the glasses melt, run down the bar like lava and the tide flowed over to me , touched my shoes, which became glass too. I wasn't scared, I found it fascinating. Are you saying that this really happened? The friend I was tripping with didn't see it and the regulars in the pub just saw some wet glasses.

 

[dafydd]

Not to be pseudo-profound, but there is a difference between, "I really experienced something" (of course people who hallucinate really do have those experiences), and, "I experienced something and it really exists apart from me." (Hallucinations do not exist outside the mind of the person having them.)

Exactly. LSD visions are not reality. I doubt if any of the people who are arguing the point have any experience of psychedelic substances. A true argument from ignorance, and that is not intended as an insult.

 

[dafydd]

Yes, but you could sit on the TV and stare at the carpet.

That might be a good idea given some of the garbage that is on TV.

 

[punshhh]

I did take it. I sampled his White Lightning and Blue Cheer too. I suppose it all depends upon what you mean by real. My first trip happened because somebody gave me a tab of Blue Cheer and I rather foolishly swallowed it in our local pub. At one point during the evening the landlord was washing the glasses and stacking them on the bar. I saw the glasses melt, run down the bar like lava and the tide flowed over to me , touched my shoes, which became glass too. I wasn't scared, I found it fascinating. Are you saying that this really happened? The friend I was tripping with didn't see it and the regulars in the pub just saw some wet glasses.

Accccccciiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid!



What were you saying about being a shy retiring type?

 

[yy2bggggs]

Not to be pseudo-profound, but there is a difference between, "I really experienced something" (of course people who hallucinate really do have those experiences), and, "I experienced something and it really exists apart from me."

You are part of reality.

ETA:

This isn't about being profound either--this is a communications gap. Nothing you or daffyd are saying is informing any of the participants of anything they didn't already know.

 

[dafydd]

Accccccciiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid!



What were you saying about being a shy retiring type?

What did you say about me posting gibberish? You promised to find some examples. Where are they? Do you have anything serious to contribute to this thread? Get back to the pixies and fairies in your foliage.

 

[dafydd]

You are part of reality.

ETA:

This isn't about being profound either--this is a communications gap. Nothing you or daffyd are saying is informing any of the participants of anything they didn't already know.

Very true. This discussion has reached saturation point.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Exactly. LSD visions are not reality. I doubt if any of the people who are arguing the point have any experience of psychedelic substances. A true argument from ignorance, and that is not intended as an insult.

You fail to grasp what is being said. LSD visions are REAL and are perceptions just like the ones you are having right now. Under some substances and a "normal" balance, your brain will interpret perceptions in certain ways, under some other substances (or self induced altered states of consciousness) it will experience the same perceptions in different ways.. nothing really obscure or complicated here. And... BOTH interpretations are equally real.

 

[Lowpro]

You fail to grasp what is being said. LSD visions are REAL and are perceptions just like the ones you are having right now. Under some substances and a "normal" balance, your brain will interpret perceptions in certain ways, under some other substances (or self induced altered states of consciousness) it will experience the same perceptions in different ways.. nothing really obscure or complicated here. And... BOTH interpretations are equally real.

No they're brain failures. They aren't actual input from your eyes they are your brain failing to properly summate the stimuli. They're as real as brain failures, which aren't very real at all (In that they're a failure of interpreting reality). But you're right, the faulty perceptions from acid are from very real failures in your brain. Doesn't mean they're real as we define reality though and that Bodhi is what I think you're trying to conflate.

Basically you're saying both interpretations are equally real but that's not true. One is real, one is a brain failure and doesn't accurately describe reality. It is NOT an equally real interpretation, it is a very poor interpretation. Stop conflating what a real failure is with a real description of reality.

*The word "real" was brought to you by the letter 'I'. Remember, there's no 'I' in 'Fellowshp'

 

[dafydd]

You fail to grasp what is being said. LSD visions are REAL and are perceptions just like the ones you are having right now. Under some substances and a "normal" balance, your brain will interpret perceptions in certain ways, under some other substances (or self induced altered states of consciousness) it will experience the same perceptions in different ways.. nothing really obscure or complicated here. And... BOTH interpretations are equally real.

I disagree. I was out of touch with reality when I took LSD. The glasses did not melt. That only took place in my brain. You can drop the Bellman tactics.

 

[dafydd]

No they're brain failures. They aren't actual input from your eyes they are your brain failing to properly summate the stimuli. They're as real as brain failures, which aren't very real at all (In that they're a failure of interpreting reality). But you're right, the faulty perceptions from acid are from very real failures in your brain. Doesn't mean they're real as we define reality though and that Bodhi is what I think you're trying to conflate.

Basically you're saying both interpretations are equally real but that's not true. One is real, one is a brain failure and doesn't accurately describe reality. It is NOT an equally real interpretation, it is a very poor interpretation. Stop conflating what a real failure is with a real description of reality.

*The word "real" was brought to you by the letter 'I'. Remember, there's no 'I' in 'Fellowshp'

I was in that pub the next evening. All the glasses were there, unmelted. I was back in reality . Is Bhodi saying that the glasses both melted and did not melt? That is just a tiny part of what happened in my head that evening.

 

[Dancing David]

Even perceptual events experienced under 600 micrograms of Owsley's Orange Sunshine?

Yes, they are real perceptual events, they may or may not have validity.

The largest dose I ever took was probably around 2,000, those events were real perceptual events, I saw goblins dancing in the rain.

Now they were not valid as real objects outside of perception.