Their brothers the Arabs.

[Cleopatra]

I have posted here many times that Israelis care more about the Palestinians than the Arab world does but nobody believes me.I have also said that if Israel wasn't created , Palestinians wouldn't have a country eitheir because before 1967 nobody recognized them.

BBC reports that during a secret meeting between the King of Jordan and Ariel Sharon, the former expressed his concern that the Fence will force Palestinians to fleed to his country and he doesn't wat that!!!

He doesn't care that the Fence causes problems to the Palestenians all he cares is that the Palestinians stay where they are!

Funny because his wife Queen I get dressed in Paris while my population starves- is of Palestinian origin.

Thank God we care and very soon the Palestinians will have a state of their own thanks to Israel.

The king is said to be concerned that construction of the barrier would prompt Palestinians to flee to Jordan.

Jordan has in the past criticised the route of the barrier in the West Bank.

A large Palestinian influx would threaten Jordan's delicate demographic balance, correspondents say. At least half of the country's population is Palestinian.

Israel says the barrier is necessary to keep out suicide bombers, while Palestinians say it is a land grab.

King Abdullah flew by helicopter to Mr Sharon's ranch in the Negev desert, where the two men held a three-hour lunch meeting, reports in the Israeli media say.

It was Mr Sharon's first meeting with the Arab leader since the Middle East summit held in Aqaba, Jordan, last year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3549203.stm

 

[zenith-nadir]

Country by country by country the Arab world rejects the palestinians, even if they have lived in the country for over 40 years. Why? Because the Arabs would loose one of their greatest tools they employ time and time again against Israel. The palestinian refugees.

Yet ironically those same countries refuse to accept Palestinian refugees.


1) In Lebanon no Palestinian can own land and they are denied access to most Lebanese jobs and services.

2) In Syria no Palestinian is eligible for citizenship.

3) Jordan occupies 77% of the original Palestine Mandate.

4) Kuwait kicked out 400,000 Palestinians after Arafat sided with Saddam in the Gulf war.

5) Col. Moammar Gadhafi expelled 30,000 Palestinians from Libya.

I need not go on.

 

[a_unique_person]

Perhaps you miss the most obvious reason for rejecting the Palestinians as refugees, no one can absord millions of dissatisfied people. I don't see any other countries lining up around the world welcoming them. Why just blame the arab states for not wanting to be a part of the solution. The fact is, most of the arab world has just given up on achieving a palestinian solution, and just wishes the problem would go away, like the rest of the world.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Perhaps you miss the most obvious reason for rejecting the Palestinians as refugees, no one can absord millions of dissatisfied people.

Except, some say, a 7000 sq mile plot of land called Israel...

Why just blame the arab states for not wanting to be a part of the solution.

Because in 1948 the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded Israel CAUSING the FIRST refugee problem.

And in 1967 Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran and the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon poised on the borders of Israel to attack Israel, CAUSING the SECOND refugee problem.

 

[Tmy]

America refused jew refugees back in WW2, yet we backed the creation of Isreal. No country ever wants refugees, they just want them to go away. We contstantly send boats of people back to Cuba, and its not cause we love Castro.

Of cousre the other arab contries dont want the Palis. Whats your point? They should be driven into the see because they have no home or friends? Sounds familiar.

 

[zenith-nadir]

No country ever wants refugees, they just want them to go away.

Since most of the refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt are from 1948 and 1967 they are more Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian than "Palestinian". We are talking about two and three generations. Yet after all these decades they still are treated like refugees in the places they live. Why?

We contstantly send boats of people back to Cuba, and its not cause we love Castro.

But Cuban refugees CAN get American citizenship and live there as equal Americans.

 

[BillyTK]

There's a long post to be written about the complex history and relationship between Jordan and Palestine, but one which I don't have time to write as I'm going stir-crazy to get out of the office and start packing for my hols—four days in Barcelona, sweet!—so instead I'll link to and selectively quote from a precis of Jordan from Lonely Planet:

When the Ottoman Empire collapsed after WWI, Britain took control of Palestine and created the state of Transjordan, under the rule of King Abdullah.

In 1948 Israeli Arabs and Jews went to war with one another. While everyone was distracted, Transjordan snapped up the West Bank and part of Jerusalem, then renamed itself Jordan. In 1953 King Hussein took the throne and Jordan entered a boom period, with a rise in tourism and plenty of aid flowing in from the USA. The Six Day War of 1967 put paid to Jordan's burgeoning tourist industry when Israel retook the West Bank and half of that huge drawcard, Jerusalem. In six days Jordan lost its money spinner and its agricultural land, and replaced them with a few thousand refugees as Palestinians streamed in from the Occupied Territories. By the 1970s, the PLO component of the refugee population was threatening King Hussein's power, and a bloody internal war began, ending when most of the radicals moved to Lebanon.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
But Cuban refugees CAN get American citizenship and live there as equal Americans.

A more important distinction, Cuban refugees, as well as every other refugee in the world, is no longer considered a refugee once they settle somewhere. Palestinian-Arab refugees, on the other hand, are still considered refugees even when they've been living in the same place for almost 60 years, along with their children and the children of their children. It doesn't matter if they own homes, have jobs, started businesses, they're still refugees no matter what.

 

[Cleopatra]

A more important distinction, Cuban refugees, as well as every other refugee in the world, is no longer considered a refugee once they settle somewhere. Palestinian-Arab refugees, on the other hand, are still considered refugees even when they've been living in the same place for almost 60 years, along with their children and the children of their children. It doesn't matter if they own homes, have jobs, started businesses, they're still refugees no matter what.

Yes I have pointed out this in past conversations. The Palestinian Refugees are a unique case in history. They multiply with geometric progress....

 

[Earthborn]

I have posted here many times that Israelis care more about the Palestinians than the Arab world does but nobody believes me.

I believe you!

Of course there are a few Israelis who don't care about Palestinians at all, or even what to see them disappear, so I'll reformulate that sentence to something I assume you actually mean, before anyone dares to critize you on it:
"A larger percentage of Israelis care about Palestinians than Arabs in Arab countries"
or:
"Those Israelis (the nice ones, like you) who care about Palestinians care more about Palestinians than the Arabs in Arab countries who care about Palestinians."

One of these is probably what you meant to say. Both would require some evidence though. The second would be a bit harder to prove since it depends more on how much people care, which is highly subjective. And it should be noted that many Arabs in Arab countries probably don't care as much about the Palestinians, because they have their own problems with their own governments.

I have also said that if Israel wasn't created , Palestinians wouldn't have a country eitheir because before 1967 nobody recognized them.

I guess it is about time that somebody does, then.

BBC reports that during a secret meeting between the King of Jordan and Ariel Sharon, the former expressed his concern that the Fence will force Palestinians to fleed to his country and he doesn't wat that!!!

He doesn't care that the Fence causes problems to the Palestenians all he cares is that the Palestinians stay where they are!

Funny because his wife Queen I get dressed in Paris while my population starves- is of Palestinian origin.

Well, that's one of those governments that many Arabs suffer from.

Thank God we care and very soon the Palestinians will have a state of their own thanks to Israel.

Very soon you say? Let's hope so. Let's hope that the Israeli government will give the Palestinians a viable state, and let's hope the Palestinian leadership will not stink it up anyway.

If it will happen very soon as you say, or even if it happens at all: thank God indeed. (If you are really sure that this will happen soon, please go here, because such a thing might be applicable.)

 

[zenith-nadir]

....so instead I'll link to and selectively quote from a precis of Jordan from Lonely Planet:"By the 1970s, the PLO component of the refugee population was threatening King Hussein's power, and a bloody internal war began, ending when most of the radicals moved to Lebanon."

Some background...


Between the constant attacks on Israel Arafat and George Habash led guerrilla battles for political control inside Jordan. They set up a state within a state and in 1968 became more concerned with overthrowing King Hussein than attacking Israel.

The fighting continued into 1970 until Abd al Munim Rifai and Arafat signed a conciliatory agreement which allowed PLO/Fateh freedom of movement within Jordan while Jordan agreed to refrain from antiPLO/Fateh action. But Arafat and the PLO/Fateh kept on fighting, (sound familiar folks?), and the Palestinians began a civil disobedience campaign.

Then on September 6 1970 , PLFP terrorists hijacked a TWA jet, a Swissair jet, a Pan Am jet and almost, an El Al jet. King Hussein was pissed to say the least and declared martial law in Jordan. He demanded the Palestinian groups to lay down their arms and to evacuate the cities. On the same day, Arafat became supreme commander of the Palestine Liberation Army which was the regular military force of the PLO/Fateh.

Needless to say a civil war broke out between Arafat and King Hussein. Syria sent Arafat 200 of their tanks but ran away after losing half of them to Jordan's army.

Hussein and Arafat signed a cease-fire agreement in Cairo after 10 days of fighting and 4000 deaths. They then signed a further agreement in Amman, under which Arafat's PLO/Fateh were to recognize Jordanian sovereignty and the king's authority.

But again, where PLO/Fateh forces had their main bases in Jordan fighting continued. (sound familiar?...again...), So Hussein appointed Wasfi at Tal as Jordan's P.M. and Minister of Defence with the mandate to crush the Palestinian groups once and for all. And he finally did in July 1971. In retaliation members of the Black September terrorist group assassinated Prime Minister Tal in Cairo.

A huge portion of the Palestinian fighters were forced to flee, and set up shop in Lebanon....which is another PLO civil war story for another time.

 

[Cleopatra]

Re: Re: Their brothers the Arabs.

Earthborn

What a lovely message! If you believe that we cannot use the past and the present in order to know what to expect in the future maybe you stop posting in the politics forum.

I don't know why you got so confused since our case is very simple.

King of Jordan visits Ariel Sharon and according to the report they discussed about the Fence.

What the kind reader would expect to read? That the Kind of Jordan complained about the problems this fence created for the Palestinians who are his brothers. But no! According to the report the King of Jordan expressed to Sharon the fears that the Palestinians would flee to his country...

Shocking.

Of course there are a few Israelis who don't care about Palestinians at all, or even what to see them disappear, so I'll reformulate that sentence to something I assume you actually mean, before anyone dares to critize you on it:
"A larger percentage of Israelis care about Palestinians than Arabs in Arab countries"
or:
"Those Israelis (the nice ones, like you) who care about Palestinians care more about Palestinians than the Arabs in Arab countries who care about Palestinians."

One of these is probably what you meant to say.

Please don't make assumptions and try to read what I said. I said Israelis, if you have more information about how many you are kindly ask to post them and not to jump into assumptions that have nothing to do with your topic anyway, please do not try to change subject.

Our topic is NOT how many Israelis care for the Palestinians but how their brothers the Arabs do NOT care about them.

Do you have anything to comment about that?

Very soon you say? Let's hope so. Let's hope that the Israeli government will give the Palestinians a viable state, and let's hope the Palestinian leadership will not stink it up anyway.

Yes Israel will give them a viable state and it will let them believe that they actually won it themselves. I believe that this will happen during the next five years.

While the Arabs try to find solutions how to get rid of the Palestinians the Israelis try hard to resolve the issue.

 

[hgc]

...

Needless to say a civil war broke out between Arafat and King Hussein. Syria sent Arafat 200 of their tanks but ran away after losing half of them to Jordan's army.

...

And Israel threatened, privately, to get involved if Syria did not get out. That left Hussein in the unenviable position of being semi-propped-up by Israel. They've been on fairly friendly terms ever since, especially considering the common enemy.

 

[Earthborn]

What a lovely message!

Thanks!

If you believe that we cannot use the past and the present in order to know what to expect in the future maybe you stop posting in the politics forum.

Well, I believe we can but there is always going to be a bit more uncertainty about the future than about the past. Concerning Israel, I don't see a quick solution. But I'm sure you know something that I don't.

But no! According to the report the King of Jordan expressed to Sharon the fears that the Palestinians would flee to his country...

Shocking.

I agree. Shocking. Not very surprising though. I also find it shocking that my own government feels the need to kick out illegal immigrants, that Australia - one of the world's least populated countries - isn't more willing to take in refugees - some of them from the world's most densely populated countries. And I also find it shocking that large parts of the US - Mexican border look remarkebly like that 'security fence' thing in Israel. The whole world belongs to everybody, Goshdarned!

Do you have anything to comment about that?

Actually, I do:

Our topic is NOT how many Israelis care for the Palestinians but how their brothers the Arabs do NOT care about them.

The problem is that if you formulate it this way, it makes it seem like you are saying that all Israelis care for the Palestinians and no Arab does. I have no doubt that I can Google up the names of some exceptions, and you probably know of a few yourself.

So if you formulate it like that, you are risking being critized by someone (I won't name names) that you are unfairly generalizing. I'm sure you don't want that, and I am sure you don't mean to generalize. To avoid that, you need to carefully formulate what you are saying.

I said Israelis, if you have more information about how many you are kindly ask to post them

I didn't make a claim. You did, I just reformulated it to avoid a generalization. If you don't have evidence for it yourself, you shouldn't make such a claim.

Yes Israel will give them a viable state and it will let them believe that they actually won it themselves. I believe that this will happen during the next five years.

You do realize that if you are right, that will be the best evidence ever presented that there is a God, don't you? Not to mention that a lot of fundamentalist Christians will be convinced that whoever made it happen is the Anti-Christ.

While the Arabs try to find solutions how to get rid of the Palestinians the Israelis try hard to resolve the issue.

You are generalizing again...

 

[demon]

Cleopatra:
"I have posted here many times that Israelis care more about the Palestinians than the Arab world does but nobody believes me.I have also said that if Israel wasn't created , Palestinians wouldn't have a country eitheir because before 1967 nobody recognized them...."

I thought you were tired of going over the same ground again and again...can`t resist a quick chance to dish up some more Israeli propaganda eh?
Oh well, here we go round the mulberry bush again.

For a start about the responsibility of Arab states: Israelis, the supporters of ethnic cleansing, do not have the moral standing to tell anyone whose responsiblity it is to clean up after the devestation and sheer destruction you have wrought upon the Palestinian people. Your heroes of the past have a lot to answer for. To be more explicit, you must deal with your overwhelming responsibility here before you can credibly raise the question of others responsibilities.

The actions of Arab states in the refugee issue is, in your own imperialist mindset, what gives you some sort of moral high ground. "Look how civilized we are, now look at those hopeless Arabs, they won`t even take in their brothers!" This is truly a Zionist clarion call to the uprightness of Israelis - except it is casuistry.

Cleopatra:
"Our topic is NOT how many Israelis care for the Palestinians but how their brothers the Arabs do NOT care about them...

While the Arabs try to find solutions how to get rid of the Palestinians the Israelis try hard to resolve the issue."

It`s always "the Arabs" isn`t it. Can`t you distinguish? As I`ve said before, if I come from Jerusalem I come from Jerusalem, if I come from Nablus, then it`s Nablus I come from. I don't come from some sort of amorphous 'Arab' world...Palestinians come from Palestine.
From an earlier post of mine: "Frankly, most European Jews these days have more European in them than Palestinians have Arab. So where does that leave Israelis? Why can't Europe soak you back up and leave the actual owners of Palestine alone? I mean, a huge number of Israelis carry both nationalities, so why don't you do the right thing and return to your countries in Europe and N America. Note how offended you suddenly feel? See how stupid this argument looks to you? Well it`s yours not mine; with the major difference that you are defending colonisers, oppressors and aggressors and I am defending their victims...Are the Palestinians being deprived of their land, denied freedom of movement and access to water by the Israelis, or by their Arab brothers? Failing to respond adequately to a refugee crisis is a little different from being the cause of it, don't you think?"

Has anyone here been to Jordan? In the mid nineties I visited friends on a stretch of land that Israel rented from the Jordanian government. The Jordanians, since it is a country with few resources, could not cultivate this desert since they did not have the advanced agroscience that the Israelis had. In fact even today agro engineers from Israel are in demand the world over including for example Brazil in the state of Ceara which suffers from long droughts. Jordan needs this help too.
Israel also helps Jordan exploit resources from the dead sea which they otherwise could not. Isreal is practically a first world country while Jordan is third world. It was created as a buffer state and King Hussein was placed there. His son and heir clearly will do all he can to look after his own ass, like his dad before and like the leaders of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and so on and so forth. Lack of help from Arab leaders for Palestinians is not a reflection of anything other than their own self interest.

You make a big deal about your knowledge of the Middle East because you lived there but your contention that Jordan should dig the Palestinians out of the hole Israel and the international community has dug for them is indicative of someone who has a very poor understanding of the region. The fact that so many Arab leaders are lackies is conveniently left out of your post. I suppose you believe that Libya and Kuwait are responsible for cleaning up what is a British and American mess? That says a lot.

Ok, a few other points.
Cleopatra:
"I have also said that if Israel wasn't created , Palestinians wouldn't have a country eitheir because before 1967 nobody recognized them."

I head they'd been there hundreds of years, do you have secret papers showing otherwise?

Cleopatra:
"Thank God we care and very soon the Palestinians will have a state of their own thanks to Israel."

Cuck-coo. Cuck-coo. Can I have another blue pill please, nurse?

 

[epepke]

And I also find it shocking that large parts of the US - Mexican border look remarkebly like that 'security fence' thing in Israel. The whole world belongs to everybody, Goshdarned!

Well, the US/Mexican border is more like putting up a fencepost every ten kilometers and pretending it's a fence. It's basically transparent.

I also think that most people in California and Texas actually realize that their economies would pretty much collapse without an influx of Mexicans, and so all the hooplah over illegal immigration is mostly keeping up appearances.

Likewise with us folks in Florida. Someone may get their knickers in a twist over Cuban refugees every once in a while, but we all know deep down that we'd be in deep weeds without them.

Actually, I do:The problem is that if you formulate it this way, it makes it seem like you are saying that all Israelis care for the Palestinians and no Arab does.

Dunno if this helps or even matters, but I was somewhat taken aback by Cleopatra's reaction here. It seemed to me that you were simply trying to find a clarification.

 

[Phrost]

And I also find it shocking that large parts of the US - Mexican border look remarkebly like that 'security fence' thing in Israel. The whole world belongs to everybody, Goshdarned!

Awesome. I assume you keep your doors unlocked and your keys in your car too.

So if you just let us know where you live, we can come freeload off you for a while. Make sure you stock the 'fridge with hot wings.

 

[zenith-nadir]

And I also find it shocking that large parts of the US - Mexican border look remarkebly like that 'security fence' thing in Israel.

Interesting point Earthborn.

Mexican-American Border

Israeli security wall

Mexican-American Border

Israeli security wall




One was built to stop suicide bombers and the other was built to stop illegal aliens.

 

[demon]

ZN:
"One was built to stop suicide bombers and the other was built to stop illegal aliens."

So say you.

 

[zenith-nadir]

So say you.

Demon subscribes to the tired old Israeli "land-grab" and "apartheid" propoganda... yet he lacks the mental capacity to ask himself these two simple questions;

1) Is the Israeli fence built in such a way that there is no technology known to mankind that can ever move or remove them?

2) Is the Israeli fence built in such a way that there is no political solution known to mankind that can ever move or remove them?