The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

[Mr_Mix]

You seem to be assuming big innovations that will allow goods & services to be provided with much less labor input - for instance, automation, sewers that don't need maintenance, &c.

However, in the real world, labor costs money so there are already very strong incentives to develop these things. People and organizations have spent a huge amount of time and effort trying to reduce the labor inputs necessary to get any given output. Why do you assume that you can magically achieve much more? Perhaps, if researchers only do 15% of the work they do now, we'll get self-maintaining sewers and massive automation overnight?

We could not do that in current cities because they were made a long time ago and retrofitting would not be feasible. So in new cities built with this kind of thing in mind you would have a much more efficient sewer system for instance. Same goes for transportation and everything else.
Technicians and scientists would work on relevant things and money would no longer prevent technological progress. They would work without pay because their wellbeing is taken care of by society already not by the "sweat of their brow". They are free and unfettered to move forward with relevant tech and ideas.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

But who is the best source to determine what to do with the earth's resources? Politicians? They do not have the know how to come up with those kinds of solutions.

Society is, driven by the capitalist model of what they need and want, which determines better than you can what should be produced. It is infact under a political state that the VP would have to determine these things.

You mean telling you to create specific things.

I have the option to say no, and I have in the past. I can declare my price and if they choose not to go with it, than so be it. Nevertheless I ENJOY CREATING, and sometimes that is allowing someone to direct me to create something new.

I doubt that.

That is because you are not an artist, and that is because you are not ME. Do not try to tell me what I am thinking, because what I know is best for me is best for me. AND WHEN PEOPLE ASK ME TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS IT HELPS ME AS AN ARTIST. Again, without input I would create the same things over and over again.

A good example of how this system creates its incentive. Competition. Incentive, however, is not always rewarded by monetary gain. That is the only incentive in this society.

Than there is no incentive. When everyone is special, than no body is.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

We could not do that in current cities because they were made a long time ago and retrofitting would not be feasible. So in new cities built with this kind of thing in mind you would have a much more efficient sewer system for instance. Same goes for transportation and everything else.
Technicians and scientists would work on relevant things and money would no longer prevent technological progress. They would work without pay because their wellbeing is taken care of by society already not by the "sweat of their brow". They are free and unfettered to move forward with relevant tech and ideas.

You know a just as legitimate way to accomplish this society is to simply close your eyes and wish for it. Because I can honestly tell you that you will not find many that are willing to work for nothing. And that is what it is....nothing. (rule 10) in one hand and wish in the other, tell me which gets full first.

 

[bobrayner]

We could not do that in current cities because they were made a long time ago and retrofitting would not be feasible.

A sewer is a tunnel. Why would retrofitting be so difficult? Anyway, sewers are just one subject out of thousands. Will you use the same excuse a thousand times over?

So in new cities built with this kind of thing in mind you would have a much more efficient sewer system for instance. Same goes for transportation and everything else.

In the real world, new urban areas are built regularly. They still don't achieve the efficiencies that you promise. Do you have another excuse?

Technicians and scientists would work on relevant things and money would no longer prevent technological progress.

Price incentives already help direct research to where it's most needed. How do you suppose research will be vastly more effective than it is now, if you take away the incentive and massively reduce the hours worked by researchers?

They would work without pay because their wellbeing is taken care of by society already not by the "sweat of their brow". They are free and unfettered to move forward with relevant tech and ideas.

Would their wellbeing be taken care of if they didn't feel like working hard on any particular day? If so, there is little reason for any of them to ever move forward with relevant tech and ideas, let alone perform the superhuman intellectual feats required by your technological fantasy. You're still ignoring the free rider problem.

 

[Mr_Mix]

Perhaps you should give us some numbers or technical details, then. So far all you've given us is wishful thinking and excuses. How would you overcome the problems?

I don't know all the tech details yet because I think most of it was written in a book Mr Fresco wrote a year or so ago. It's coming in the mail. I'll read it and let you know what I found ASAP. I guess I can just chill until it arrives but I still want to come up with ideas then read to see how my ideas differed from the ideas written by TVP. The forums I'm talking in around the net are certainly helping me to think about how such a system might work. A critical thinkers forum is proving pretty good in that respect although the philosophical debates about human behavior are more about opinion in contrast to the numbers involved in the actual physical work needed to bring about such a system which are more concrete.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Would their wellbeing be taken care of if they didn't feel like working hard on any particular day? If so, there is little reason for any of them to ever move forward with relevant tech and ideas, let alone perform the superhuman intellectual feats required by your technological fantasy. You're still ignoring the free rider problem.

Exactly. I use the artist example because it is easy and approachable to most people; but you are using the John Galt parable, and that one is better. Why should I move society forward without any gain? Why should I care when the guy flipping burgers is at the same level than me? Not that there is anything wrong with his job, but the mental strain of my job would be harder than his. Don't I deserve something? Why should I care.

This VP would end up just like the Soviet Union. Sure they can build a tractor and build it well, but it is the same model tractor they built in 1953, and they built it until the 90's. There is no incentive for innovation in such a system.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

duplicate

 

[bobrayner]

I don't know all the tech details yet because I think most of it was written in a book Mr Fresco wrote a year or so ago. It's coming in the mail. I'll read it and let you know what I found ASAP.

I look forward to your answers.

I had a look at http://www.thevenusproject.com/. No answers there, just more vague wishful thinking plus a large dose of CGI. Still at least he lets us buy "The Best that Money Can't Buy" for a mere $24.95, and he sells "Welcome to the Future" on VHS. Why does he charge so much money instead of doing it for love? I wonder why such important information isn't freely circulated.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

I look forward to your answers.

I had a look at http://www.thevenusproject.com/. No answers there, just more vague wishful thinking plus a large dose of CGI. Still at least he lets us buy "The Best that Money Can't Buy" for a mere $24.95, and he sells "Welcome to the Future" on VHS. Why does he charge so much money instead of doing it for love? I wonder why such important information isn't freely circulated.

Man I know. I wonder if he would at least put it on a torrent for everyone to download for free. I mean this is the future we are talking about here.

Oh...and bobrayner I will not stand for you making fun of VHS!!! That is my only warning here. Forget Blue Ray or DVD....VHS is where it is at. Got it? I think I'll let you off with a warning this time.

 

[bobrayner]

Man I know. I wonder if he would at least put it on a torrent for everyone to download for free. I mean this is the future we are talking about here.

Good point

 

[Mr_Mix]

Society is, driven by the capitalist model of what they need and want, which determines better than you can what should be produced. It is infact under a political state that the VP would have to determine these things.

It's the capitalist model that manufactures false wants with advertising and creates waste of several kinds. Also, I would not be deciding anything. We all would.

I have the option to say no, and I have in the past.

You won't get paid.

I can declare my price and if they choose not to go with it, than so be it.

You mean 'then I won't get paid'.

Nevertheless I ENJOY CREATING, and sometimes that is allowing someone to direct me to create something new.

Then the client is truly creating it, not you. It's like the music producer and the engineer. You're just turning the knobs.

That is because you are not an artist, and that is because you are not ME. Do not try to tell me what I am thinking, because what I know is best for me is best for me. AND WHEN PEOPLE ASK ME TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS IT HELPS ME AS AN ARTIST. Again, without input I would create the same things over and over again.

Why do you assume I am not an artist. I never said anything about my artistic ability you just assumed that. Why? It makes you sound very elitist about your artistic ability. I am an artist, by the way.

Than there is no incentive. When everyone is special, than no body is.

Your only frame of refernce for incentive is money because thats all you know. A good example of how your environment has shaped you.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

It's the capitalist model that manufactures false wants with advertising and creates waste of several kinds. Also, I would not be deciding anything. We all would.

Whatever...we all have a choice as to if we actually want to buy. I am sorry if you have to do whatever the T.V. or Gooogle tells you to do but the non-ignorant society doesn't.

You won't get paid.

Well not for work I don't do. Yeah that is completely fair.

You mean 'then I won't get paid'.

AGAIN...NOT FOR WORK I DON'T DO!!!!!!! That is completely fair.

Then the client is truly creating it, not you. It's like the music producer and the engineer. You're just turning the knobs.

Oh...real mature. Insult me as an artist. Nice, and it shows how strong your argument is. Congradulations on attacking the individual without risking a violation. No I still create the art, but the client gives me an idea of what they want. It is ALWAYS THE COMBINATION OF THE VISIONS THAT COMES THROUGH! So stop with the weak little personal attacks.

Oh and your elitism is showing! Because the engineer is completely important. Yeah, it is more than just turning knobs. This really shows how little knowledge you actually have of the production process. Ignorance is awful when creating examples, because a sound engineer has every right to demand fair pay because they understand the specifics.

Why do you assume I am not an artist. I never said anything about my artistic ability you just assumed that. Why? It makes you sound very elitist about your artistic ability. I am an artist, by the way.

Sorry I just assumed your not a good artist. Or at least not a working artist. Because it is obvious you don't actually know the business. I do, and I enjoy my work, and I would like you to not personally attack me anymore.

Your only frame of refernce for incentive is money because thats all you know. A good example of how your environment has shaped you.

Oh...yes. Please save me from the evil capitalist structure. Grow up. My frame of reference is due resources in exchance for my work, and I will not sacrifice myself for anything less. HENCE YOUR LITTLE KUMBYA CIRCLE WILL ALWAYS FAIL. Good day sir.

Oh and more childish insults against me will force me to ignore you.

 

[Mr_Mix]

I look forward to your answers.

I had a look at http://www.thevenusproject.com/. No answers there, just more vague wishful thinking plus a large dose of CGI. Still at least he lets us buy "The Best that Money Can't Buy" for a mere $24.95, and he sells "Welcome to the Future" on VHS. Why does he charge so much money instead of doing it for love? I wonder why such important information isn't freely circulated.

Nope no nuts and bolts answers there. It's in the book I suppose. I would assume that not every detail would be possible until certain steps are taken in the real world so I'm sure the books he has written only provide so much technical info as well. It would be impossible for one guy to come up with, say, the exact amount of food it would take to feed a whole world for the transition period but approximations could be made with real data. On the other hand some info can be very detailed. We shall see.
Why would he give it away out of love? I'm sure he worked hard on it and he lives in a monetary system so money is the incentive right now. He, and we, are not in a VP future quite yet. We all got bills and such. People assume that since we are talking about a money-less society that all books that are written about that subject should be available for free. I certainly wouldn't give it away for free if I wrote the book unless I had zero expenses. It's like saying "hey he proposes a social system that has no money. Why is he making money in this monetary society!" That doesn't make sense.
All the details of a VP like society will be freely circulated as awareness grows and some of it may change from what was written in Jacques books.
He holds several patents for aerospace tech too from what I heard. I bet he made a pretty penny of that stuff too. Shame on him!

 

[paximperium]

I'm not going to do anything. We all would.

What is this "we" crap?

I don't see why anyone would need to crawl in a sewer since the sewer was designed from the ground up to not need human maintenance like they do now.

More "magic fixes all the problems" excuse.

No one would have a bosses office because there would be no boss.

Oh really? Did you just wave your hands and make my arguments dissapear?
How are uou going to force people to work? Who decides who works and does what job?
Who decides? Who makes decisions? Your inability to even answer this simple question is truly pathetic.

Hehheh you love to try to trap TVP proponents into the old "you're just created a government" trap. I think thats the fourth time I've read that in your posts.

Meaning that you have no answers but more magic hand waving. There is no trap, you can fall in the hole you dig yourself.

What I was suggesting or guessing is that people who would like to participate would live in the city and the ones who didn't would not need to. Like The Amish.

Why am I not surprised?
"Live the way we dictate or we will expel you."
Welcome to true "slavery".

They would not like to live in one of these city's so they would be free to live outside it. I'm not sure why anyone else would not want to.

Because some people would rather not live in an authoritarian regime.

There is no hard labor. Robotics and machines in general could do all that but there would be some types of work that still require humans.

You would work much less and have a standard of living that would certainly go far beyond subsistence levels. Work would be easy and reduced by...I dunno...85%?
What do you think of that? *shuts eyes and covers head*

Good.
Now how about you actually answer the question instead of throwing up red herrings?

So instead of fulfilling specific human desires, you're going reengineer humanity to not want specific things anymore?
Is that the gist of it?


So now you're going to force people to work?

Who decides the schedule? Who decides who crawls in the sewer and who sits in the office? A boss? Welcome back to "slavery"(as you call it).

 

[paximperium]

Nope no nuts and bolts answers there. It's in the book I suppose. I would assume that not every detail would be possible until certain steps are taken in the real world so I'm sure the books he has written only provide so much technical info as well. It would be impossible for one guy to come up with, say, the exact amount of food it would take to feed a whole world for the transition period but approximations could be made with real data. On the other hand some info can be very detailed. We shall see.
Why would he give it away out of love? I'm sure he worked hard on it and he lives in a monetary system so money is the incentive right now. He, and we, are not in a VP future quite yet. We all got bills and such. People assume that since we are talking about a money-less society that all books that are written about that subject should be available for free. I certainly wouldn't give it away for free if I wrote the book unless I had zero expenses. It's like saying "hey he proposes a social system that has no money. Why is he making money in this monetary society!" That doesn't make sense.
All the details of a VP like society will be freely circulated as awareness grows and some of it may change from what was written in Jacques books.
He holds several patents for aerospace tech too from what I heard. I bet he made a pretty penny of that stuff too. Shame on him!

confidence man
n. A man who swindles his victims by using a confidence game.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

confidence game
n. A swindle in which the victim is defrauded after his or her confidence has been won.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

paximperium: You provided good answers, as has everyone here that has asked questions of the VP. It just seems to me that everything is becoming either magic hand waving or shielded personal attacks. There are no real answers to how anything would work. Everything is a denial of human nature. Everything is a denail of how humans want to work. And in my case...it is a denial of me as an artist. Right now I can't handle the personal so....

....I am out for at least the next day. I am too drunk to continue this without risking my membership agreement....again. Good day everyone.

 

[Mr_Mix]

I am sorry if you have to do whatever the T.V. or Gooogle tells you to do but the non-ignorant society doesn't.

No need for an apology because I don't do what anyone tells me to do except when my boss tells me to go to work or my GF tells me to...do anything, ha!

Congradulations on attacking the individual without risking a violation.

Thanks

This really shows how little knowledge you actually have of the production process.

I own a home recording studio and produce my own music. I'm aware of the process.

Sorry I just assumed your not a good artist. Or at least not a working artist. Because it is obvious you don't actually know the business.

I know a thing or two about the biz. I've recorded and produced music in a pro studio and played some shows in a rock band. Fun stuff.

Oh and more childish insults against me will force me to ignore you.

I don't see why you think I would care. So far your opinion is not interesting to me. Good day to you as well Mr. fullflavormenthol.

 

[Mr_Mix]

What is this "we" crap?

You and me Pax, together...ok let go of my hand dude

How are you going to force people to work?

I will not do anything. We will.

Who decides? Who makes decisions? Your inability to even answer this simple question is truly pathetic.

Great questions Pax. You prepare your statements in such loving, caring ways it warms the cockles of my heart
Decisions would not be made, they would be arrived at. Arrived at by AI computer systems and world wide sensor networks. No politicians, no uneducated decision making by unqualified opinions. Just hard data and the scientific method applied to the social direction.
It has a nice ring to it doesnt it?

 

[quixotecoyote]

I knew it was going to be magical computers! I knew it!

It's like some mid-Robot-series Asimov fantasy.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Oh. My opinion is not interesting. Well. That is probably because you don't understand it. You are only here to "spread awareness", which means that you are only a low level at what ever you propose or perhaps mommy and daddy provided the basis of whatever you do. Hell you know what it doesn't even matter if you built yourself from the ground up. You have taken it upon yourself to tell another artist that they are not creative, and that you know what is best for me.

Still you cannot answer how your system would survive given that there will ALWAYS BE social stratification and competition. Also you can't explain how your society will survive given that it cannot allocate resources, given it has no plan. Well...excuse me, no plan you can't learn about without paying $29.95 to a hack fiction writer who couldn't actually make it in the real world.

Whatever. I have more than proven myself. Look around...your Venus Project has failed, and the reason...is people like you.