The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

What would be to refuse to follow the rules?

I will suppose that a bunch of people tired of the world as it is right now would venture in create a self sufficient city which complied with what I am sketching here.

Then I will assume that only people committed with the ideas will want to live there.

Later, that if some of them want to return to the monetary based economy they are certainly free to do so.

Now, if ALL THE WORLD were living on such a system, it would happen exactly the same as it happens now.

This guy pretends that I have to "rule" "my" society as the ultimate upper duper emperor of some sort. No, I have not claimed that AT ALL. I would not do anything in such society but enjoy my life, my family, my friends, having a productive and meaningful life. For a few years I would have to serve as the government as any other citizen, but that's about it.

This society would be based on everything we know about human behavior, I'm pretty sure we, as humanity, can model something better that what we have now (more efficient as I have said countless times), it would not be based on my personal beliefs, or likings. Made to my own image if you like.

You both seem to forget that I'm merely playing here with ideas, thinking about imaginary worlds to see your opinions. There is the ZM and as it is obvious by now, I agree with some of their ideas while I doubt the feasibility of some others. Based on their ideas I wanted to explore mine. Are they more feasible? I doubt it, this is an exercise, nothing else. I would have to dedicate my life to study and to find people who would be interested in attempting such a goal, and I don't see that happening unless the world as we know it disintegrates.

The above actually shows that you don't understand human behaviour.
Edited for rule 12 violation. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
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It seems that BDL doesn't really know how to rule his society wiihout kiling people which keeps with the STALINIST ideal.
 
It seems that BDL doesn't really know how to rule his society wiihout kiling people which keeps with the STALINIST ideal.

You've got a little foam right there....

No, the other side.

No, I mean....

Oh just come here, already!

<towels off fullflavormenthol>

Really, some people....
 
It seems that BDL doesn't really know how to rule his society wiihout kiling people which keeps with the STALINIST ideal.
Chill dude.

BDZ is annoying and less than honest in this "discussion"(more like BDZ claims something and ignores everyone elses ideas) but I doubt he is a megalomaniac mass murderer...a communists for sure.
 
Now, an important point here is that we would not conceptualize productive activities as "work" in the same way as as we do on this society. One thing is to have a productive activity and another, very different, is to have to work. Both can refer to the same endeavor yet their meanings are substantially different. For instance, you can perform a personal satisfying productive activity because it suits you, it makes your life interesting, gives you a sense of personal value and it gives you meaning.

In contrast, slaves (in this society) have to work for their right to keep themselves alive. They born in debt and will be forever in debt. Only a very few, selected individuals can dedicate themselves to productive activities that are not monetary "rewarded". After all... it is said, you HAVE to WORK for a LIVING... Truth is, you only have to work when your assets can't cover your basic needs for as long as you live, if you do have such assets then you definitely don't have to move a finger for a living.

You know, even in today's society, you don't even really have to work to stay alive. There are millions of people in the United States that don't work at all, by choice. Of course, their lives are not as comfortable as people that actually contribute to society, but I fail to see as reason as to why they should.

So, I believe a leap of world view is needed here. You would not be able to give anything "for free" because it would be a nonsensical to claim that something has to have a price. Nothing would be "free" as nothing would cost a dime.

No, they would still be free. Things like housing, healthcare, clothing, food, and education require the resources and energy of society, and if they are given without requiring anything in return, you could still say they are given away for free.

But you have reckoned that people often do productive activities without receiving a dime. So, how do you KNOW this? I believe most would choose to have meaningful lifes, but that's my feeling. What differentiates your view from mine? both are just ideas, assumptions, until we have some actual facts. And we will not have such facts unless proper methodologies of research are implemented. Actually, I would like to see something like this happening in the hands of the people behind the ZM.

How do you even define a meaningful life? I suppose that question could only be answered by the person in question. Perhaps for one person it is being a doctor and for somebody else it is trying to achieve spiritual enlightenment by using huge doses of LSD all the time. I know people that do this. By the way, doing upwards of 500 hits of acid at once is an extremely bad idea unless you are very familiar with the drug.

Last time I checked, they were are a small minority. And who knows what would happen to them if more interesting things than McJobs were around, ready for them to explore.

Yeah they are a small minority, but still one of the many that would leech of society. There are already plenty of things more interesting than McJobs that they could do. They don't because stoners are lazy. At least a lot of them are. I know, I used to be a stoner.

Again, this is a non supported assumption. As a side point, why do you pay your taxes at all?? Because you are giving them all kind of public services, for free, and you don't seem to be upset about it.

You must not know any druggies. I know a lot of them. A huge percentage would love nothing more than to get high all day and your system would enable them to do that easily.

I would rather not pay most of my taxes. I am a libertarian at heart and I do have a problem with the government my money and redistributing it. But I do voluntarily live in this society so I should follow the rules. Plus, the consequences of not pay taxes if I get caught are not worth the risk.

This is a better question. Society will, exactly like now. I have also proposed that every citizen would be part of the government, from say 30 to 33 years old, there are no elections, no democracy, nor technocracy, no bureaucracy, every single member of society have to be the government, so every decision is collective. Someone can invent a productive activity, for example, and ask via internet who would be interested in taking part. If there is interest things would happen automatically. For example, say you want to teach "karate on a snowboard", if people is interested in learning that, you would have a productive activity.

What you described as a government is a democracy, a direct one instead of a representative one we have now. Do you have any idea how inefficient that would be in a country of 300 million people? Or if you are talking about the whole world, 6.7 billion people? Congress can often barely get anything done and there are only 535 of them.

So you could just invent BS jobs like teaching "karate on a snowboard" and if people were interested society would give you the big screen TVs, sports cars, ect? You know what I see happening with that. People would invent BS jobs, get their friends to say they are interested, do nothing and reap the benefits. You would have to have people in place to prevent such fraud. But oops, you just said that there are no bureaucrats. Hmm, I guess it would just go on unchecked then.

There you go, an excellent choice for you. Would be nice, wouldn't it?

I could do it right now if I wanted to. But I wouldn't expect to have the life style of a successful doctor, for example.

Well, I don't know if it is efficient for individuals to have their "own" planes, maybe their own Veyron, I can't see why not, but certainly not the mansion. They are very inefficient waste of space, and require many people to perform some manual jobs that would be not required if we all lived in more efficient environments. I think in small cities, where we would have incredible nice private spaces, maybe something like current homes and apartments, but certainly more engineered than the "chaos" we live now on.

Anybody could have their own Veyron? Really? You think that? You must not understand economics at all. There is a reason it costs almost $2 million (and I think they actually lose money with every one that they sell, it just exists as a technology demonstrator). The price tag isn't just some arbitrary number. It costs so much because they require a lot of time, labor, and resources to build. It is not possible for every person that wants a Veyron, or a car like it, to have one.

As for the plane and mansion, yes they are probably inefficient for individuals to own. But what if I provide an incentive for people to build them for me. Would you still tell me that I couldn't own them? Sounds a lot like fascism to me.
 
Chill dude.

BDZ is annoying and less than honest in this "discussion"(more like BDZ claims something and ignores everyone elses ideas) but I doubt he is a megalomaniac mass murderer...a communists for sure.

Thanks, I guess. Im curious about why annoying and "less than honest". I'm not ignoring ideas, in a discussion you put arguments, and those get arguments as responses. I value everyone comments, when they are not red herrings, ad hominems and etc.

I have answered the arguments, I have give evidence, I have encompassed it with clear meanings. At least I try. On the other hand, I still see people not willing to discuss, but to impose their ideas, or calling me names.
 
because human being do not simply do things for the greater good.
Edited for rule 12 violation. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
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Edited for rule 12 violation. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Anybody could have their own Veyron? Really? You think that?

No, of course not. My point is that not everybody is interested in a Veyron. If you go to buy some bread, would you want just the most delicate and elaborated one? Or would you want the one you need for the occasion.

I know people who like trucks, or sub compacts, and will NEVER want a sports car that can do 400Km/h. Do you see?

As for the rest of your post, you make interesting points. That's all I have asked in this thread, arguments, like yours, that of course defeat some of my naive speculations (yes, I have a hard time understanding the ones who take this to an emotional level, I'm discussing here just some ideas, thinking them loudly so I can learn to see where they fail)..

Thanks.
 
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No, of course not. My point is that not everybody is interested in a Veyron. If you go to buy some bread, would you want just the most delicate and elaborated one? Or would you want the one you need for the occasion.

I know people who like trucks, or sub compacts, and will NEVER want a sports car that can do 400Km/h. Do you see?

As for the rest of your post, you make interesting points. That's all I have asked in this thread, arguments, like yours, that of course defeat some of my naive speculations (yes, I have a hard time understanding the ones who take this to an emotional level, I'm discussing here just some ideas, thinking them loudly so I can learn to see where they fail)..

Thanks.
Dude, just admit that you want to be Stalin and control the lives of everyone in society because your post communicate that the ideal. And honestly it won't work.
Edited for rule 12 violation. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
FFM, stop these personal attacks now.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
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No, of course not. My point is that not everybody is interested in a Veyron. If you go to buy some bread, would you want just the most delicate and elaborated one? Or would you want the one you need for the occasion.

As for the rest of your post, you make interesting points. That's all I have asked in this thread, arguments, like yours, that of course defeat some of my naive speculations (yes, I have a hard time understanding the ones who take this to an emotional level, I'm discussing here just some ideas, thinking them loudly so I can learn to see where they fail)..

Thanks.


Of course not everybody wants a Veyron or a car like it. But the number that can be produced is far smaller than than the number of people that want them. I would very much like to have one but I am not rich so I can't.

And thank you for listening to my points.
 
Thanks, I guess. Im curious about why annoying and "less than honest". I'm not ignoring ideas, in a discussion you put arguments, and those get arguments as responses. I value everyone comments, when they are not red herrings, ad hominems and etc.

I have answered the arguments, I have give evidence, I have encompassed it with clear meanings. At least I try. On the other hand, I still see people not willing to discuss, but to impose their ideas, or calling me names.
Here is my issue with your "style" of discussion. You do not concede points(ie. refuse to see flaws in your argument) and especially refuse to acknowledge opposing opinions that run contradictory to your own. That is annoying and seems as if you're dishonestly dodging opposing ideas.
 
No, of course not. My point is that not everybody is interested in a Veyron. If you go to buy some bread, would you want just the most delicate and elaborated one? Or would you want the one you need for the occasion.

I know people who like trucks, or sub compacts, and will NEVER want a sports car that can do 400Km/h. Do you see?

As for the rest of your post, you make interesting points. That's all I have asked in this thread, arguments, like yours, that of course defeat some of my naive speculations (yes, I have a hard time understanding the ones who take this to an emotional level, I'm discussing here just some ideas, thinking them loudly so I can learn to see where they fail)..

Thanks.
What if the production capacity could produce 1000 Veyrons but 100000 people want it? How do you decide who gets it?

A lottery? What if someone wants it more than the winner?

You still haven't answered:
What if someone who lives in your utopian society refuses to follow the rules and refuses to leave?
 
Here is my issue with your "style" of discussion. You do not concede points(ie. refuse to see flaws in your argument) and especially refuse to acknowledge opposing opinions that run contradictory to your own. That is annoying and seems as if you're dishonestly dodging opposing ideas.

Let me get this straight. Someone makes a point which I consider to be weak, I address it stating relevant data and arguments and pass to the next point... and in doing so I fail to acknowledge that the opposing argument was annihilating mine?

Excuse me, it doesn't work that way. In a discussion you do not emotionally diminish (red hearrings) the conflicting arguments, you analyze them, answer and move forward. Otherwise the discussion gets stuck or fastly become a street fight, not something productive.

Now, if my answers are not properly evaluated, or are diminished when you find out that I'm not surrendering, we should fall in an ego fight? because I find that very, very boring.

So there you go, I'm sorry that you have issues, maybe you can state your arguments again and I will be careful to properly address them all. On the other hand I also expect that you will read, and address the arguments, not what you interpret as my attitude.
 
What if the production capacity could produce 1000 Veyrons but 100000 people want it? How do you decide who gets it?

A lottery? What if someone wants it more than the winner?

You still haven't answered:
What if someone who lives in your utopian society refuses to follow the rules and refuses to leave?

Ok, two very good questions. I would say that, naturally, the production will climb to meet the demand. Because there is no monetary cost involved increasing the production is not a problem, unless we couldn't find more people willing to do them. I don't know what would happen in this situation. Maybe we would have to find a way to make it completely automatic, and unless that could be accomplished there would be trouble.

As for the people refusing to accept the rules. It is expected that some individuals will always complain. And I have answered this before, please do not ignore nor invalidate my answers. Argue against them, which is different.
 
Ok, two very good questions. I would say that, naturally, the production will climb to meet the demand. Because there is no monetary cost involved increasing the production is not a problem, unless we couldn't find more people willing to do them. I don't know what would happen in this situation. Maybe we would have to find a way to make it completely automatic, and unless that could be accomplished there would be trouble.
That is not an answer. You've basically found excuses for why such a situation will not/may not occur.

What will happen if demand is not met? Your answer seems to be "I don't know."

This is a glaring weakness of your system that MUST be answered or your utopian system will never work.

As for the people refusing to accept the rules. It is expected that some individuals will always complain. And I have answered this before, please do not ignore nor invalidate my answers. Argue against them, which is different.
Please post me the link. I've only partially kept up with this discussion and the few that I remember that you posted were not very convincing.

This is not about "complaining".
This is about people who blatantly refuse to follow the rules.
What if the rule being broken is non-criminal?
What if someone refuses to recycle or decides to waste electricity?
Will you imprison them? Will you banish them? Brainwash them? Drug them?
 
[de-lurk] Two things:

1) Directed at Mr. Mix: I've read everything on the Venus Project web page, and my primary complaint is that it's all a lot of words with no numbers at all (except of course for the prices of the books and videos they sell). Have you read their for-sale material? Does it have any substance? By this, I mean does it contain any quantifiable data at all (Such as estimates of the planet's carrying capacity, production capacity of the systems they "propose" etc.)? The only thing I learned from reading their website is that Mr. Fresco apparently does not know how to write a resume.

2) For both Mr. Mix and BDZ: Both of you seem to be suggesting that a moneyless economy should be possible iff technology is developed to both improve efficiency and replace much, if not all, menial labor. You've also suggested (I think both of you have, forgive me if I misremember) that such technology is not being produced now because it's too expensive (but won't be in a moneyless economy). So if we need the technology in order to be moneyless, but we can't build the technology until we are moneyless, how do you propose to bootstrap the transition from the economy we have to the one you want in the first place? All the Venus Project seems to be saying is that once they build their experimental city it will all become clear. (And how ironic is it that they actually state they'll only begin building it if/when enough money is raised--"We'll build a moneyless economy for you as soon as we have plenty of money." Yeah, right :rolleyes: )

Oh yeah, I also see one more number coming from TVP: $550,000--the sale price they want for their Florida HQ, since they're moving from Venus to Ecuador (I wonder if they're bringing a large supply of Kool Aid with them :) ).
 
Ok, two very good questions. I would say that, naturally, the production will climb to meet the demand. Because there is no monetary cost involved increasing the production is not a problem, unless we couldn't find more people willing to do them. I don't know what would happen in this situation. Maybe we would have to find a way to make it completely automatic, and unless that could be accomplished there would be trouble.

As for the people refusing to accept the rules. It is expected that some individuals will always complain. And I have answered this before, please do not ignore nor invalidate my answers. Argue against them, which is different.

Sorry you are wrong. There is no possible way for them to build as many of them as people would want. There is a reason why it is the most expensive car in the world and even still Volkswagen is losing money by making them. As I said before, the price tag isn't some arbitrary number. It (under) represents the labor and resources that went into designing and building it. The Bugatti Veyron is not like a Honda Civic or something that can just roll of an assembly line in huge numbers.
 
That is not an answer. You've basically found excuses for why such a situation will not/may not occur.

What will happen if demand is not met? Your answer seems to be "I don't know."

This is a glaring weakness of your system that MUST be answered or your utopian system will never work.

Wait a second, do you actually imply that a single individual is capable of generating a WHOLE SOCIETY? in a couple of weeks? Wow, thanks for the vote of confidence but don't tell me that "my answer seems to be I don't know". Read again, I said I DON'T KNOW, how could I?

Maybe now you can go back and understand that I did answer, if you don't like the answer then is different from accusing me of not answering.

This is not about "complaining".
This is about people who blatantly refuse to follow the rules.
What if the rule being broken is non-criminal?
What if someone refuses to recycle or decides to waste electricity?
Will you imprison them? Will you banish them? Brainwash them? Drug them?

Me? Who said anything about me? Again, this society would not have A GOD LIKE RULER, you and the other guy simply assume that there most be one, and naively assume that it should be me. Again, let's state this slowly. There should be no central authority. Decisions should be made by the interested group. Again, some individuals will be unable to comply with ANY society rules, why should this civilization have a "special way" to deal with such individuals? So, it will happen to them what happen in here. Will you say that I'm not answering again, because you don't see a 4000 pages document detailing how this should be done?
 

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