The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

2) For both Mr. Mix and BDZ: Both of you seem to be suggesting that a moneyless economy should be possible iff technology is developed to both improve efficiency and replace much, if not all, menial labor.

I wouldn't say it is a prerequisite, but it would be desirable to avoid the worst jobs. Machines have been taking over some of the most tedious and/or dangerous jobs, and this tendency will continue in this monetary society anyway.

You've also suggested (I think both of you have, forgive me if I misremember) that such technology is not being produced now because it's too expensive (but won't be in a moneyless economy). So if we need the technology in order to be moneyless, but we can't build the technology until we are moneyless, how do you propose to bootstrap the transition from the economy we have to the one you want in the first place?

I have stated that if the cost can't be justified it will not happen. For instance, if developing the technology costs more than what you will save in a reasonable period of time you will never do it. The first city would have to be somehow primitive in this aspect.

All the Venus Project seems to be saying is that once they build their experimental city it will all become clear. (And how ironic is it that they actually state they'll only begin building it if/when enough money is raised--"We'll build a moneyless economy for you as soon as we have plenty of money." Yeah, right :rolleyes: )

I would agree with this, but... I believe there are COUNTLESS things to resolve before we attempt a first city. About the irony, well, I don't find it specially weird, as in order for people to actually move (in this society) they want to see the money first.

For instance, I have zero problems in to going to live in such a city and do my best in order to make it work, without charging one cent. In my case, I would raise enough money to buy an island (UNLESS WE COULD FIND AN ISLAND OWNER WHO WAS WILLING TO PARTICIPATE IN THE PROJECT) and then invite people to participate/live on it.

Oh yeah, I also see one more number coming from TVP: $550,000--the sale price they want for their Florida HQ, since they're moving from Venus to Ecuador (I wonder if they're bringing a large supply of Kool Aid with them :) ).

Where have you read this? Ecuador is full of insects.. I don't like insects :)
 
Sorry you are wrong. There is no possible way for them to build as many of them as people would want. There is a reason why it is the most expensive car in the world and even still Volkswagen is losing money by making them. As I said before, the price tag isn't some arbitrary number. It (under) represents the labor and resources that went into designing and building it. The Bugatti Veyron is not like a Honda Civic or something that can just roll of an assembly line in huge numbers.

Let's see... Why is it expensive? This thing about thinking in a different society implies that we need to revise very well our thinking. Some key concepts are in play, concepts that would dramatically change in a different society.
 
Wait a second, do you actually imply that a single individual is capable of generating a WHOLE SOCIETY? in a couple of weeks? Wow, thanks for the vote of confidence but don't tell me that "my answer seems to be I don't know". Read again, I said I DON'T KNOW, how could I?

Maybe now you can go back and understand that I did answer, if you don't like the answer then is different from accusing me of not answering.
This is the reason I find you annoying and downright moronic.

I present a glaring problem with your utopian society and not only do not have an answer to it, you seem to just walk past it and ignore this problem.

YOU ARE THE PERSON ADVOCATING A UTOPIAN SYSTEM.
Now either back it up or concede that this system is garbage.

Me? Who said anything about me? Again, this society would not have A GOD LIKE RULER, you and the other guy simply assume that there most be one, and naively assume that it should be me. Again, let's state this slowly. There should be no central authority. Decisions should be made by the interested group. Again, some individuals will be unable to comply with ANY society rules, why should this civilization have a "special way" to deal with such individuals? So, it will happen to them what happen in here. Will you say that I'm not answering again, because you don't see a 4000 pages document detailing how this should be done?
Your BS argument shows your downright inability to have an honest discussion. You not only refuse to answer questions, you ignore these questions.

I have ZERO interest in reading a 4000page pile crap. If you are unable to advocate your position of this idea, why should I continue to waste my time on your fantasy?

Why can't you answer this bloody question without acting like a moron?

Do not insult other posters. Remember, attack the argument, not the arguer.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
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Let's see... Why is it expensive? This thing about thinking in a different society implies that we need to revise very well our thinking. Some key concepts are in play, concepts that would dramatically change in a different society.
Magic hand waving. No, this question will not go away with your obfuscation.

It is expensive because production is low and demand is high.
How do you manage demand that exceeds production?

Didn't you say you don't know in your earlier post? Now you have the answer?

Why are you playing coy with these "concepts"? What are they? How will it change with this new "society"?
 
I was not aware of your genius. Of course this utopia will not work.. duh... Can't you understand that I'm simply thinking loudly about all this? Do you feel that telling me that I'm a moron is a valuable way to discuss? (free hint: red herring tactics are only useful if your opponent is not aware of the logical fallacies involved). I'm thinking loudly, got it now? I'm not here to solve world problems, I'm not here proposing you to change your life. I'm here discussing IDEAS.

Now, if this is so annoying (for you) I have some good news! Go away, there are much more interesting things for you to discuss for sure. I have answered your questions and if you don't change your attitude you are going on ignore.
 
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Disingenuous in the extreme BDZ. You were "just asking questions" in the same way 9/11 CT loons do.
 
Disingenuous in the extreme BDZ. You were "just asking questions" in the same way 9/11 CT loons do.

:eye-poppi

So.. I'm being categorized and labeled here BECAUSE some people, with a hidden agenda or something, discuss in a similar way! go figure.

Yes asking questions, thinking loudly, all to improve my ideas. Is that So Very Wrong? Wow. Where is my hypocrisy? I'm trully amazed by the openness of "a place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way". Take a break guys, I guess you need to relax.
 
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I was not aware of your genius. Of course this utopia will not work.. duh... Can't you understand that I'm simply thinking loudly about all this?
You are not thinking. That is your problem.
This is a forum. It is not YOUR playground alone. If you want to think, go do it in the privacy of your own head instead of sharing your useless thoughts while ignoring everyone else.
Do you feel that telling me that I'm a moron is a valuable way to discuss? (free hint: red herring tactics are only useful if your opponent is not aware of the logical fallacies involved),
Speaking of red herring, why are you whining and playing the victim instead of answering valid points? Your hypocrisy is truly sad.
that I would find myself comfortable thinking loudly.. JUST THINKING?
Yes. Everyone is well aware of your "thinking " where you ignore anything that contradicts your fantasies.
If this is so annoying (for you) I have some good news! Go away, there are much more interesting things for you to discuss for sure. I have answered your questions and if you don't change your attitude you are going on ignore.
Speaking of attitude. Unable to hold an honest discussion. Unable to see flaws in your arguments. Close minded and dishonest. I see you doing the same in your utopia. Ignore protests, ignore anyone who disagrees with your dogma. Put them on ignore, they'll go away.

Good bye. I will go away. You are intellectually boring.
 
Speaking of attitude. Unable to hold an honest discussion. Unable to see flaws in your arguments. Close minded and dishonest. I see you doing the same in your utopia. Ignore protests, ignore anyone who disagrees with your dogma. Put them on ignore, they'll go away.

Good bye. I will go away. You are intellectually boring.

Boring :) I have been accused of many things, but never for being "boring"! In any case, what is an "honest discussion"? I have not only conceded that there are "flaws" in my arguments... I have openly said that this ideas can't be taken seriously because they are still newborns. Sure, I have to defend them and I surely thank (as I have said) the feedback of this discussion. Oh well.
 
Let's see... Why is it expensive? This thing about thinking in a different society implies that we need to revise very well our thinking. Some key concepts are in play, concepts that would dramatically change in a different society.

Because they take much more labor and resources to build than your average car. I've already explained to you that the price tag isn't just some arbitrary number, it actually represents something.
 
Because they take much more labor and resources to build than your average car. I've already explained to you that the price tag isn't just some arbitrary number, it actually represents something.

Dtugg, Im aware of that. Do you really feel that I don't know the facts about why it is expensive IN this society? As a background, I have made most of my money in the stock market, I do know about costs. Now, my question was deeper in the sense that I wanted to be evident that it is expensive because the engineers, the research, the simulations, some of the materials, are expensive in a monetarian based society.

But, I believe there would be engineers fascinated by the chance to work on the necesary equations to reach 400Km/h, there would be scientists smiling by the possibility of runing the simulations, first in a computer and then in a wind tunnel. People involved in the project because IT IS INTERESTING TO ACHIEVE THE RESULT. This would not cost a cent if all these people lived in a society where there is no money.

I have a question for you. Do you believe that it costs more to design a nice wheel than an ugly one? Why does the cheapest cars have ugly wheels? Why after market wheels can be so nice? Do you believe that the price is always right and follow the same rules? Do you know that in Panama I can buy a pair of Levi's for 3 bucks? What's the cost of something? Ok, that's more than one question ;)
 
Dtugg, Im aware of that. Do you really feel that I don't know the facts about why it is expensive IN this society? As a background, I have made most of my money in the stock market, I do know about costs. Now, my question was deeper in the sense that I wanted to be evident that it is expensive because the engineers, the research, the simulations, some of the materials, are expensive in a monetarian based society.

But, I believe there would be engineers fascinated by the chance to work on the necesary equations to reach 400Km/h, there would be scientists smiling by the possibility of runing the simulations, first in a computer and then in a wind tunnel. People involved in the project because IT IS INTERESTING TO ACHIEVE THE RESULT. This would not cost a cent if all these people lived in a society where there is no money.

I have a question for you. Do you believe that it costs more to design a nice wheel than an ugly one? Why does the cheapest cars have ugly wheels? Why after market wheels can be so nice? Do you believe that the price is always right and follow the same rules? Do you know that in Panama I can buy a pair of Levi's for 3 bucks? What's the cost of something? Ok, that's more than one question ;)

I'm sorry but I think that you are incredibly naive.

VW has some of the best engineers in the world not only because they are interested to achieve the result but also because they pay the engineers well (I assume). Take away the money, would they still want to do it? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll just concede that it's unknowable and move on.

Besides the cost of engineering, there is the cost to manufacture it which I assume contributes a good sum of the total. Things like carbon fiber, titanium, and magnesium are not in infinite supply. They cost something to make, even if you don't put a price on it. Nobody is going to go mining for all the extra titanium or magnesium or fabricate all the extra carbon fiber just because they like doing it. They do it now because they get paid.

Then there is the labor involved in it. Each one takes two or three weeks to build by hand. I'm sure that they for the most part enjoy doing their jobs, but they also, I am sure enjoy getting paid well for it. If you take away the economic benifits from doing it, there is no guarentee that people would do it.

Then of course, you have the fact that when demand skyrockets because you are giving them away for free, there is no way to keep up with it. Well, what if more people don't want to work for Bugatti to build supercars? Or what if the people that do are not qualified and end up screwing every thing up? You can't just wave your hands and say make it all automated, because its doubtful that is even possible.

That's thing thing about giving stuff away for free. Especially things as highly coveted and difficult to build as a supercar. There is no possible way for supply to keep up with demand.

As for your question about the wheels. Yes it probably does cost more to design nice wheels that crappy ones, anybody could design some generic wheel made out of steel. And if definitely costs more to make them. Things like chrome and magnesium are not in infinite supply. Not everybody that wants 20inch chrome wheels can have them. If the price was the same as crappy wheels, the demand would quickly exceed the supply. The cheapest cars have the ugliest wheels because the manufacture of the car is trying to keep the price down for the people in that would be interested in buying a car in the price range. If they want better ones, they can shell out more money for them. Its up to the consumer.

The price is usually a good indicator of how much resources and labor went into making something. Capitalism forces companies to compete with each other and one of the biggest ways for a company to keep business is to sell something for as low as possible. Sometimes, especially with luxury items, they might charge significantly more than costs because they know people will pay it. I doubt this is the norm though. On the flip side, companies sometimes sell stuff below cost to gain market share. GM is has been selling cars for less than it cost them to make for a while (and losing a crapload of money doing so). Walmart does this sometimes too.

As for your Levi's for $3 in Panama, I highly doubt that those are the same jeans that they sell in the States, for example. They are probably low-qualify versions or perhaps even counterfeits. Levi's has around a 10% profit margin on about $4 billion in revenue. That is nothing to complain about, but if they lowered the price of all their jeans across the world to $3, they would be losing all kinds of money.
 
I'm sorry but I think that you are incredibly naive.

Really?

I don't want this to sound wrong, but let me guess, middle class worker? And I ask because you appear to be buying the idea that the market is fair, costs and profits go hand on hand and everything is ok. I have some news, let's say that I know people in high spheres and someone from the car industry told me once that they make horrible wheels to make people buy "the nice ones". You read it right, they artificially make somethings UGLY in order to push people to pay a premium to buy more stuff. Multiply that for every industry you know and you will get the picture.
 
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Really?

I don't want this to sound wrong, but let me guess, middle class worker? And I ask because you appear to be buying the idea that the market is fair, costs and profits go hand on hand and everything is ok. I have some news, let's say that I know people in high spheres and someone from the car industry told me once that they make horrible wheels to make people buy "the nice ones". You read it right, they artificially make somethings UGLY in order to push people to pay a premium to buy more stuff. Multiply that for every industry you know and you will get the picture.

Well, I come from a middle class family. I'm 23 and make good money without having an actual job. Exactly how, is none of your business. And yes, I do think that a market based system is fair. For whatever problems you see in it, it definitely far superior than your utopian fantasy which in reality would do nothing but oppress and make everybody actually worse off. There is a reason why the United States is the richest, most successful country in history and the Soviet Union no longer exists. I have no problem in giving companies some profit in exchange for services and products.

Your little story about the wheels is nothing more than a personal anecdote. And now that I think about it, the cheapest wheels on the cheapest new cars today don't even look bad or anything. Sure, the more expensive ones look better, but so what, you get what you pay for. And either way, there is no possibly way of applying your little personal anecdote on every industry on the planet.
 
I do think that a market based system is fair. For whatever problems you see in it, it definitely far superior than your utopian fantasy which in reality would do nothing but oppress and make everybody actually worse off.

Far superior to a fantasy? Come on! Let's see, a system that has been in use for generations and have been shaped by millions of individuals is superior to the ramblings one individual posting in some random forum over the Internet. Now, that is whooping surprising. I'm speechless!

Guess I'm done, It is pretty impressive, and educative, that people in here respond in this manner. Heck if someone in my company has an idea we listen to it, and reply to the idea, without diminishing the individual, without trashing his ideas as stupid, without having personal arguments.

You people can't do that, and it is fine, you all can keep punishing the woos about ghosts and supernatural stuff, it is good that you all do that.
 
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Far superior to a fantasy? Come on! Let's see, a system that has been in use for generations and have been shaped by millions of individuals is superior to the ramblings one individual posting in some random forum over the Internet. Now, that is whooping surprising. I'm speechless!
People will notice the total lack of substance in this post alone. Unable to dispute a point, BDZ falls back sarcasm.

Guess I'm done, It is pretty impressive, and educative, that people in here respond in this manner. Heck if someone in my company has an idea we listen to it, and reply to the idea, without diminishing the individual, without trashing his ideas as stupid, without having personal arguments.
Now of course, when multiple people with a better understanding of economics and history concludes that an old rehashed and repackaged idea is stupid and naive and the proponent dismisses glaring problems in their ideas but instead claims that everyone else is to blame, one has to wonder who the dogmatic closed minded person really is?
 
Excuse me, I blame the attitude, not the arguments :rolleyes:

... I thought you were gone by now, happily doing better things with your time! What brings you back? R e l a x man, this is an internet forum, just a forum, you don't have to save humanity from my ramblings. One thing is clear, you feel diminished and I'm sorry about that, it was not my intention to minimize the big importance of your points.

Oh, and your grace inquisitor... your nick is rather interesting... you are pretty bully for being name an "empire of peace"!
 
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Excuse me, I blame the attitude, not the arguments :rolleyes:
Sure. Anyone can read these posts and see how polite, patient and interested most posters were at the start and then most have an "attitude" against you as time passes and almost everyone ignores you later on. I wonder why?
... I thought you were gone by now, happily doing better things with your time! What brings you back? R e l a x man, this is an internet forum, just a forum, you don't have to save humanity from my ramblings.
Can't pass of commenting on blatant whining. I enjoy a good laugh.
What makes you think I take you any more seriously than any Truther or nutjob?

One thing is clear, you feel diminished and I'm sorry about that, it was not my intention to minimize the big importance of your points.
Projecting much? Coming from someone who was complaining of ad hominems and red herring, your hypocrisy is most amusing.

Oh, and your grace inquisitor... your nick is rather interesting... you are pretty bully for being name an "empire of peace"!
If you are unable to defend your arguments, you call it bullying. Sad.

I'm glad you enjoy reading so much into a nick I created on a whim for an internet game over 10 years ago. Meet paximperium the Orc Warrior. :rolleyes:
 
What makes you think I take you any more seriously than any Truther or nutjob?

You keep answering my dear friend! :D I call that love.


Now, when this derail ends and if someone else have ideas I'm all ears. I might add a resume for those not willing to read the whole thread to find the good stuff.
 
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Sure. Anyone can read these posts and see how polite, patient and interested most posters were at the start and then most have an "attitude" against you as time passes and almost everyone ignores you later on. I wonder why?
Can't pass of commenting on blatant whining. I enjoy a good laugh.
What makes you think I take you any more seriously than any Truther or nutjob?

Projecting much? Coming from someone who was complaining of ad hominems and red herring, your hypocrisy is most amusing.


If you are unable to defend your arguments, you call it bullying. Sad.

I'm glad you enjoy reading so much into a nick I created on a whim for an internet game over 10 years ago. Meet paximperium the Orc Warrior. :rolleyes:


As much as we might wish it to be otherwise, some listeners are simply tone deaf and some posters are simply fools. ;)
 

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