The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

cheat3 said:
Imagine...puff...like machines that can fliy...puff...and freaking windows where you can see people on the other side of the world...puff...and everyone saving up and giving money to people who cant work...puff...woo, Im shorrrttttt sighteddddd mannnnnnnn
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Short sighted. The call of those who get angry at the rest of us who see the short sighted outlook of people who believe that society can be reset like a computer, with a system that has no connection to any reality.

The plane works within reality. Connecting the world through a network of technology works within reality. People voluntarily given to others works within reality. Expecting Marxism to suddenly work because of the introduction of robots, doesn't.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
The ZM is all about creating a better life for everyone. Sure, it is not perfect. Sure, a lot of things won't work. Sure, some things might be absurd.

...

So, what if the ZM is not the right answer? It is a start. And sites like storyofstuff open the eyes of thousands to the idiocy of current system. Threads like this one might be just a seed, and this is all it needs to be.
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The goal of a better life for everyone is commendable, but talking about the goals while using methods of brainstorming that eschew modern knowledge of what is known to work in terms of engineering, architecture, process management, and governance is the biggest flaw here. The devil is always in the details, and you can't make the devils go away by ignoring the details.

As for the Story of Stuff link, I was really torn on the video. I agreed mostly with the conclusion, but found most of how it got there to be disingenuous, hyperbolic, and a little annoying by talking to me like I'm five years old (while using a ninth-grade vocabulary). It's really too bad, because the content had the potential to be really great but came across as condescending and a bit too steeped in political speech.

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luke1234 said:
I think that Zeitgeist is a real eye opener. I have watched it many times and although I dont think everything is 100% I would say most of it is logical and truthfull. I mean if you actually think that they was not something strange with 911 then you haven't got a clue. There is too much to talk about but at the end of the day there is soo much evidence that points to somesort of inside job that I cant dispute it, the goverments have always been ***** lets face it, they just want to control the world via fear and manipulation. Those buildings would not have colapsed so easily by 1 plane hit each one I dont care what anyone says, people will choose to believe what they want but I know that that was a false flag operations just like all the others before it.
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The conspiracy theory section is thataway -->
 
I'm going to dispense some needed advice to all those thinking about remolding society.

No one ideology gets it all right! None of them do. They all like to claim that they do but they don't. None ever has. An ideology only works when everything happens the way it predicts and due to the imperfect nature of humanity that means that pure ideologies just don't work.

Now The Venus Project claims it is not trying to create a utopia because it acknowledges fault....But it also has decided that it's ideology will be the Scientific Method and will exclude other ideological paradigms like capitalism, socialism, religion, monetary economics, feudalism and so on.

Here's the thing. The components of the this society will be built with the aggregate results of those discarded ideologies. Did a society with no monetary system invent computers? How about concrete? Fiber optic cables?

Even the goal of ecological stability is pirated from the societies that are supposedly worthless. The environmental movement rose up, not in a moneyless utopia, but in the middle of a highly capitalistic society. So to did geothermal power, solar power, wind power and nuclear power.

The Venus Project is basically appropriating the fruits of the labor or the ideologies it despises and is attempting to use them to create some sort of glorified Club Med for people with PhD's in robotics.

And would it work? Probably not. There's still that thing about no one ideology knowing everything so eventually something will happen it can't deal with and it will go the way of history as has so many similar attempts before it.

History's cruel like that.
 
Travis said:
I'm going to dispense some needed advice to all those thinking about remolding society.

No one ideology gets it all right! None of them do. They all like to claim that they do but they don't. None ever has. An ideology only works when everything happens the way it predicts and due to the imperfect nature of humanity that means that pure ideologies just don't work.

Now The Venus Project claims it is not trying to create a utopia because it acknowledges fault....But it also has decided that it's ideology will be the Scientific Method and will exclude other ideological paradigms like capitalism, socialism, religion, monetary economics, feudalism and so on.

Here's the thing. The components of the this society will be built with the aggregate results of those discarded ideologies. Did a society with no monetary system invent computers? How about concrete? Fiber optic cables?

Even the goal of ecological stability is pirated from the societies that are supposedly worthless. The environmental movement rose up, not in a moneyless utopia, but in the middle of a highly capitalistic society. So to did geothermal power, solar power, wind power and nuclear power.

The Venus Project is basically appropriating the fruits of the labor or the ideologies it despises and is attempting to use them to create some sort of glorified Club Med for people with PhD's in robotics.

And would it work? Probably not. There's still that thing about no one ideology knowing everything so eventually something will happen it can't deal with and it will go the way of history as has so many similar attempts before it.

History's cruel like that.
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No one ideology gets it all right! Some ideologies get none of it right - learn the difference. ;)
 
GreNME

Thanks for your post! Finally, someone who see what I did with the thread and who is not just whining about the ZM. ;)

GreNME said:
The goal of a better life for everyone is commendable, but talking about the goals while using methods of brainstorming that eschew modern knowledge of what is known to work in terms of engineering, architecture, process management, and governance is the biggest flaw here. The devil is always in the details, and you can't make the devils go away by ignoring the details.

As for the Story of Stuff link, I was really torn on the video. I agreed mostly with the conclusion, but found most of how it got there to be disingenuous, hyperbolic, and a little annoying by talking to me like I'm five years old (while using a ninth-grade vocabulary). It's really too bad, because the content had the potential to be really great but came across as condescending and a bit too steeped in political speech.
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I agree, there are a lot (and I mean a lot) of unresolved stuff around the ZM... still, any effort of any group of people who honestly believe that we should be able to exercise a better management of resources so more people could benefit from them is commendable, in my view.

I also agree with you in the Story of Stuff, still, the mere presentation of the problems is what is worth of it. I really hope more and more people gets disappointed by the current system, and that the world ends it faster, by getting aware of how deep is the hole we are carving by continuing to do what we are doing now.

Every member of the JREF, it doesn't matter if we are sitting in millions or ten of thousands of dollars, are the minority, the high classes, the "winners" on this system, but there are countless other individuals who does not share even our most basic amenities (things like a hot shower or a fridge with food). We should not allow that to happen. We should be able to workout a system that gives this to every individual. At least, I honestly want to believe it should be possible.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
I agree, there are a lot (and I mean a lot) of unresolved stuff around the ZM... still, any effort of any group of people who honestly believe that we should be able to exercise a better management of resources so more people could benefit from them is commendable, in my view.
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So "honesty" trumps both competence and common sense, in your book?

I mean, I know some people who honestly believe that they are hearing the voice of God in their heads and that they should do what it tells them. I know some other people who honestly believe that income tax is illegal and that they should not only not pay taxes themselves, but they should keep other people from paying them.

Far from being "commendable," I consider them to be the sort of people that we should be protected from. And the law agrees, for the most part.

I'm not sure if the ZM followers have yet to achieve the status of "danger to themselves and to others," but they've certainly achieved the status of "if anyone took their ideas seriously enough, it would hurt a lot of people very badly." The fact that they're honest nutcases doesn't mean that they deserve commendations.
 
GreNME said:
As for the Story of Stuff link, I was really torn on the video. I agreed mostly with the conclusion, but found most of how it got there to be disingenuous, hyperbolic, and a little annoying by talking to me like I'm five years old (while using a ninth-grade vocabulary). It's really too bad, because the content had the potential to be really great but came across as condescending and a bit too steeped in political speech.
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If that's the way you feel, you may enjoy The Myth of Ozacua.

eta: I like Yoism because it's one of the better attempts to play with language. Not especially innovative, but better executed than some efforts.
 
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drkitten said:
So "honesty" trumps both competence and common sense, in your book?
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?? Do you believe that the world will turn in to the ZM ideas any soon? Me neither. I see them as a seed, things will change, things are changing anyway, and if more and more people looks in to stuff like the ZM and open their eyes, things will change faster. I do hope they change towards a better world for more people, instead of more goods accumulated by greedy individuals and the continuation of a society based on predating natural resources instead of creating technology that integrates with the environment (for monetary reasons).
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
Do you believe that the world will turn in to the ZM ideas any soon?
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No, because I have an irrational hope that most people are smarter than that.

I see them as a seed, things will change, things are changing anyway, and if more and more people looks in to stuff like the ZM and open their eyes, things will change faster.
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Well, that's part of the difference in our worldview.

You see them as a seed.

I see them as a lugnut, that for some reason an idiot has buried and is now shouting "GROW, DAMMIT!" at. In the hopes that the lugnut will grow into a vintage 1967 Camero.

And I see no reason to hold this particular idiot up as a role-model for anyone else who likes classic muscle cars.

I do hope they change towards a better world for more people, instead of more goods accumulated by greedy individuals and the continuation of a society based on predating natural resources instead of creating technology that integrates with the environment (for monetary reasons).
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And this is another part of the difference. You think that "more goods" is bad. Me, I like more goods. More goods means that they're available more cheaply and widely, and anyone who likes can have fresh fruit to eat, even in the dead of winter. Predating natural resources is a good thing as long as we can do it sustainably, which in many cases means overharvesting for a time until people realize a need for "technology that integrates with the environment."

If it hadn't been for whale-oil, we would never have found a use for petroleum. If it weren't for petroleum, we would never have found a need for decent hydrogen fuel cells.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
... still, any effort of any group of people who honestly believe that we should be able to exercise a better management of resources so more people could benefit from them is commendable, in my view.
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What if war is necessary to do that?

Every member of the JREF, it doesn't matter if we are sitting in millions or ten of thousands of dollars, are the minority, the high classes, the "winners" on this system, but there are countless other individuals who does not share even our most basic amenities (things like a hot shower or a fridge with food). We should not allow that to happen. We should be able to workout a system that gives this to every individual. At least, I honestly want to believe it should be possible.
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According to the Global Hunger Index the three worst countries in providing basic nutrition are The Democratic Republic of the Congo, North Korea, and Swaziland. What system might help the people of those countries? How will it do it while contending with geopolitical realities of those regions? If our current system in Western countries has fewer than 5% suffering from malnutrition why is a whole new system needed in Western countries?
 
drkitten said:
And this is another part of the difference. You think that "more goods" is bad.
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No. I don't. More goods for everyone, this is what we need, but as for now it is more goods for the elite (as I said in a previous post, anyone posting on the JREF is part of that elite).

drkitten said:
Me, I like more goods. More goods means that they're available more cheaply and widely, and anyone who likes can have fresh fruit to eat, even in the dead of winter.
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And so, this is ONLY possible in a monetary based society. Is this what you are saying? There are not, and can't be any alternatives whatsoever.

Besides, how many people (aprox % of world population) is able to do that? Some countries are able, granted. How admirable. Thing is some of us do not care about countries, we care about one planet, one humanity.

drkitten said:
Predating natural resources is a good thing as long as we can do it sustainably, which in many cases means overharvesting for a time until people realize a need for "technology that integrates with the environment."
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But we do not do it in such a way that it is sustainable. Nobody cares as long as money is coming to the arches with reasonable costs.

drkitten said:
If it hadn't been for whale-oil, we would never have found a use for petroleum. If it weren't for petroleum, we would never have found a need for decent hydrogen fuel cells.
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Ergo, in your view, humanity can't advance or design or create anything but by making mistakes. Evidence?
 
Travis said:
What if war is necessary to do that?
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We are territorial animals, but this does not mean we have to go to war every time we want or need something. Does it? IMO a project like the ZM needs to buy land (probably an island) and then establish a colony there, without confronting anyone. If the experiment succeeds I believe the only ones who would oppose it are the minority who accumulates 60% of world's wealth (I recall this is about 2% of population). So, it would not be exactly a war... Of course, in any case, this is nothing but speculation. I don't understand why some people in the forum actually expects that some random guy (in this case me) will have the answer to every possible question, and would know how to change the world for good and for everyone...

Travis said:
According to the Global Hunger Index the three worst countries in providing basic nutrition are The Democratic Republic of the Congo, North Korea, and Swaziland. What system might help the people of those countries? How will it do it while contending with geopolitical realities of those regions? If our current system in Western countries has fewer than 5% suffering from malnutrition why is a whole new system needed in Western countries?
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What about healthcare. What about those paying themselves bonuses with the money of bailouts, while they have produced nothing but problems. It's all good in your view, I guess. But this is about awareness, I insist, nor the ZM and certainly not I have all the answers, but this is not to say we cannot spot or cease to repudiate current inadequacies.
 
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