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The War on Fundamentalism

a_unique_person said:
The real war, as far as I can see, is not a war on terrorism. It is a war on fundamentalism and ignorance.
Attempted translation:

A war was declared but the wrong enemy was chosen. Terrorism is not our enemy. Our real enemy is twofold. The two elements are:
(1) fundamentalism--which has something to do with religion, but I won't say exactly what it means

and
(2) ignorance. For example, some people don't even know enough about airplanes to fly one into a building. We need more people who have knowledge to do anything they want to do, such as fly airplanes into buildings.

After all, terrorism is not a real problem, right?
 
Re: I sare a similar view

crocodile deathroll said:
Dubya has turned this war into a war between fundamentalisms. It's a war between to American crusaders an and Arab world's Jihadis with oil thown in to make it a lot more volitile.

CDR

And the US crusaders are actively trying to convert the Arab world to Xianity?

Really?
 
a_unique_person said:
The real war, as far as I can see, is not a war on terrorism. It is a war on fundamentalism and ignorance. There is plenty of evidence that both these qualities are present in many countries around the world, including the US and Australia, and it is these qualities of individuals that lead to the current conflicts around the world.

Educated Muslims are no more a threat, as far as I can see, than educated Xians or any other group. Fundy Muslims, who want to wage a jihad using terrorism, are just as dangerous as the Zionist extremists who believe the Messiah will turn up to fight a great war to create Israel, or the Xians lining up for their trip into the sky to meet Jesus, and enjoy the spectacle of watching us miserable heathens fighting the war that they started so the rapture would happen.

This is the real battleground. If the fundies win, we will be forced to choose which group of fundies we will side with in the hope that we pick the right group, the one that will win a bloody and relentless war on humanity, on purely pragmatic grounds, self preservation.

Do you really think that today in 2004, there is no difference in the scope, violence, and activity between Islam, Xian, and Jewish fundamentalists?

As far as I know there is no active Xian cells trying to overthrow western governments and install the Mosaic law and give the death penaly to non-Xians. These countries are majority Xian but all have at least de facto seperation of church and state.

The best example I can think of comes from the late 1980s. If you recall film director Martin Scorsesee made "The Last Temptation of Christ." In the film Jesus has sex in a dream. There were some protests but two years later the director went on to make the Oscar laden "GoodFellas."

At the same time Rushdie wrote "The Satanic Verses." The book was moderatly critical of Islam. He received a death sentence in a Fatwa that if I recall over 50% of the Arab world supported. I believe Rushdie is still in hiding.

Apples and Oranges...
 
Re: Re: The War on Fundamentalism

The idea said:

Attempted translation:

A war was declared but the wrong enemy was chosen. Terrorism is not our enemy. Our real enemy is twofold. The two elements are:
(1) fundamentalism--which has something to do with religion, but I won't say exactly what it means

and
(2) ignorance. For example, some people don't even know enough about airplanes to fly one into a building. We need more people who have knowledge to do anything they want to do, such as fly airplanes into buildings.

After all, terrorism is not a real problem, right?

Having worked as a software engineer for years, I like to fix a problem properly, not just apply a patch. Patching only works in the most trivial of problems. Otherwise, you are only making problems worse.

Like the title implies, I am trying to get to the root cause of the problem. The Iraq invasion, if you read http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42690 you can see that blundering around in ignorance can only make the problem worse. I am not saying that terrorism is not a problem, i am saying I want it fixed properly.
 
Mike B:
"Do you really think that today in 2004, there is no difference in the scope, violence, and activity between Islam, Xian, and Jewish fundamentalists?"

Let a few Islamic states occupy a few Christian states and see how long the difference in the scope of violence lasts. Western states are rather good at violence if you haven`t noticed.

"As far as I know there is no active Xian cells trying to overthrow western governments and install the Mosaic law and give the death penaly to non-Xians."

Care to enighten us as to how ANY Islamic/Arab state has a cats chance in hell of overthrowing ANY western "civilized" governments?
I hear this all the time, how we are under such existential threats from the Islamic world...just once I`d like to know how.
 
Re: Re: I sare a similar view

Mike B. said:


And the US crusaders are actively trying to convert the Arab world to Xianity?

Really?
Xtian crusaders have some hair brained idea in their heads that all the Arabs will be converted to Xtianity on Judgement Day

No way they will openly admit that, but Xtians Zionist behind the right of politics in the US is very much for the final conflict of Armageddon where the theatre of battle will be in Babylon or the modern day Baghdad.

This stinks just as much of fundamentalism as any SOB Jihadi suicide bomber.
 
I have found it most annoying to here so many in this country deride Islamic Fundamentalist (rightly so) but only putting emphasis on Islamic.

This is a good thread because so many people don’t get it.

There’s no doubt in my mind that Christian fundamentalists could easily be just as violent and just as blindly pious in their reasoning given the right circumstances. The bombing of clinics that perform abortions (not to mention the Olympics in Atlanta) quickly come to mind.

There is nothing more dangerous on the face of the Earth than a human being who believes that they can’t be wrong. Most people, no matter how strongly they feel about something, can be reasoned with at least to the point of considering they could be in error.

But when they get into that mode where belief in the Bible/Koran equals the literal word of God/Allah then that equates to ‘I can’t be wrong because God/Allah can’t be wrong’ then watch out, as we have all seen no act is too hideous or improbable. Of course who pulls their strings are those who ‘explain’ the correct ‘interpretation.’

This is one reason why I never consider such beliefs as Creationism or Intelligent Design to be as innocuous as some suggest. These are not merely silly beliefs that only hurt the believers but a very clear indication of just how many people will totally turn their faces from reality and that is dangerous. I care not whether those who would fly planes into buildings are Muslims or Christians, only that blind faith makes any act possible if one believes it is the will of God/Allah.

Even the most ardent patriot may question the justification of his own actions. The truly devout would never question the motives of God.
 
a_unique_person said:
The real war, as far as I can see, is not a war on terrorism. It is a war on fundamentalism and ignorance.

It's really not that simple. It is a war against an ideology, but simple ignorance is not the sole problem. Neither is fundamentalism as such. The mad mullahs of Iran, for example, are not fundamentalists, though they are radical. But they are a leading state sponsor of terrorism.


Educated Muslims are no more a threat, as far as I can see, than educated Xians or any other group.

You place far too much faith in education as a panacea. The leadership of Al Quaeda is not drawn from the ingorant. The 9/11 hijackers were middle class, not the poor. Many key terrorists are engineers or doctors. And A.Q. Khan ran a nuclear arms black market in support of rogue states despite being a nuclear engineer.


Fundy Muslims, who want to wage a jihad using terrorism, are just as dangerous as the Zionist extremists who believe the Messiah will turn up to fight a great war to create Israel, or the Xians lining up for their trip into the sky to meet Jesus, and enjoy the spectacle of watching us miserable heathens fighting the war that they started so the rapture would happen.

Much as I would like to believe it, this simply doesn't square up with what I observe in the world. While I'm sure most muslims are fine, reasonable people, it is still muslim extremists who are starting wars against Christians and Animists in Africa, against Hindus in Kashmir, against Buhdists in southeast asia, and against Jews anywhere they can find them. And against each other throughout the middle east. I see no other religion in such constant violent conflict with every other religious group it meets. I heard a great quote once: "If more than three people you know are jerks, maybe it's you." It may not be PC to say so, and you can go hunting for blame wherever you want, but something is indeed rotten with the state of Islam. And simple education is not enough to purge this disease.
 
Originally posted by demon
Let a few Islamic states occupy a few Christian states and see how long the difference in the scope of violence lasts. Western states are rather good at violence if you haven`t noticed.

No need for that. Just look at the post-colonialist histories of other religions. Plenty of countries of other religious persuasion have been colonized or conquered by Europeans, and eventually either won independence or had it granted. And yet, Islam stands out in the production of international terrorism. You can claim that Christians aren't any better all you want, but somehow all the other major religions of the world are better than Islam at not producing terrorists.


I hear this all the time, how we are under such existential threats from the Islamic world...just once I`d like to know how.

Nuclear weapons. That's how. Think long term for once, you half-wit.
 
Let a few Islamic states occupy a few Christian states and see how long the difference in the scope of violence lasts.

Try Asia.

For centuries, the west had occupied, controlled, and interfered with Japan, SE Asia, India, and China, yet there are no movements there (except perhps fringe groups) to kick out the evil westerners. If anything, Japanese, Indians, Chinese and even Vietnamese and Cambodians can't seem to be able to get enough of western goods and trade--despite having been at war with it in the last few decades.

Result? Unlike the backward Arab world, they are prospering.

If you want to talk about Muslims occupting other lands, well, we can also go with what happened in the Arab world since the 1940s.

The mideterranian Muslim world--Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Morocco, in particular--used to have a large Christian- and jewish-Arab population. Since the 1950s, official and unofficial "ethnic cleansing" through civil war, discrimination, occassional massacres, mob violence, etc. had forced the vast majority of them either to convert or to emigrate (especially to France).

Result? A dhimmi-free collection of pure Muslim states. What an achievement. But, since (like the jews in Germany) these "infidels" were often the most educated, most modernized, and most civilized strata of Morocco's or Syria's society, their disappearance left the purely Islamic state far worse off.

Maybe keeping a grudge for centuries and being determined not to rest until the inferior infidels recognize your greatness isn't such a hot strategy, after all.
 
Originally posted by demon:
Let a few Islamic states occupy a few Christian states and see how long the difference in the scope of violence lasts. Western states are rather good at violence if you haven`t noticed.

Do "Christian" states actually exist, insofar as the moral, social and religious teaching of a Christian sect is incorporated into law?

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll:
Xtian crusaders have some hair brained idea in their heads that all the Arabs will be converted to Xtianity on Judgement Day

I would have thought that the "Christian crusaders" believed that anyone who still hadn't fallen into line at that late stage was heading straight for the warm place.
 
Skeptic said:
Let a few Islamic states occupy a few Christian states and see how long the difference in the scope of violence lasts.

Try Asia.

For centuries, the west had occupied, controlled, and interfered with Japan, SE Asia, India, and China, yet there are no movements there (except perhps fringe groups) to kick out the evil westerners. If anything, Japanese, Indians, Chinese and even Vietnamese and Cambodians can't seem to be able to get enough of western goods and trade--despite having been at war with it in the last few decades.

Result? Unlike the backward Arab world, they are prospering.

If you want to talk about Muslims occupting other lands, well, we can also go with what happened in the Arab world since the 1940s.

The mideterranian Muslim world--Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Morocco, in particular--used to have a large Christian- and jewish-Arab population. Since the 1950s, official and unofficial "ethnic cleansing" through civil war, discrimination, occassional massacres, mob violence, etc. had forced the vast majority of them either to convert or to emigrate (especially to France).

Result? A dhimmi-free collection of pure Muslim states. What an achievement. But, since (like the jews in Germany) these "infidels" were often the most educated, most modernized, and most civilized strata of Morocco's or Syria's society, their disappearance left the purely Islamic state far worse off.

Maybe keeping a grudge for centuries and being determined not to rest until the inferior infidels recognize your greatness isn't such a hot strategy, after all.

I think you're skipping over a few decades of heavy communist influence in most of those Asian states somewhere in there. Are you sure Japan never caused us any trouble, either?

Anyway, similar 'miracles' or 'purification' were devised historically in Europe (especially Spain, most recently in Bosnia, but a lot of it was done in the 20th century) where substantial Muslim populations were eradicated, and Jewish populations were routinely slaughtered and persecuted. Heck, the Christians even killed each other - A LOT - because they couldn't agree on the details.
 
Originally posted by Shane Costello Do "Christian" states actually exist, insofar as the moral, social and religious teaching of a Christian sect is incorporated into law?

If you listen to the Christian Supremacists, America was built from Christianity, is only about Christianity, and anything short of a Christian-run theocracy with all the non-Christians either disenfranchised, in prison, converted, or dead, is unacceptable and 'ruining the place'. Similar to talk that '◊◊◊◊◊◊◊' shouldn't drink at the same water fountain, or go to the same schools IMHO, but politically acceptable, even expected, in U.S. politics.
 
varwoche said:
I'm behind the title of this thread 100%. However, as destructive as I consider homegrown fundamentalists, they don't belong in the same sentence with Islamist jihadists in terms of threat to civilization.

Not only futures. The Islamist threat has already been realized not only in lives lost, but in the deterioration of our liberties.

You forget the Dark Ages. Christian Fundamentalism just had a several hundred year headstart on Islamic Fundamentalism.
 
Roadtoad said:
Forgive me, bro, but I think we're yet to see what our homegrown fundamentalists are capable of.

Maybe that's because they've already been through the "destructive" age (Puritan times) and are now operating on a different playing field (economic control).
 
Re: Re: I sare a similar view

Mike B. said:
And the US crusaders are actively trying to convert the Arab world to Xianity?

Really?

Isn't conversion the goal of any religion??

In my mind, fundamentalists are those who put religion ahead of all other considerations (political, economic, etc.). Some fundamentalists are blatant about it while others operate behind the scenes and take a long term view of it.
 
Blue Monk said:

This is one reason why I never consider such beliefs as Creationism or Intelligent Design to be as innocuous as some suggest. These are not merely silly beliefs that only hurt the believers but a very clear indication of just how many people will totally turn their faces from reality and that is dangerous. I care not whether those who would fly planes into buildings are Muslims or Christians, only that blind faith makes any act possible if one believes it is the will of God/Allah.

Even the most ardent patriot may question the justification of his own actions. The truly devout would never question the motives of God.

Here, here.

:clap:
 
from a_unique_person:
The xian fundies will be quite happy to see a global war start ...
I'm not sure zenith-nadir is aware of the Jewish role in that war (which is going to really boring, frankly, since its history has already been written. Should be some good TV though). Truth is, their zionism doesn't actually mean they've fallen in love with the Christ-killers. How long, one wonders, before encouragement of Jews to move to Israel becomes a requirement? What if the Jews become represented as retarding the rapture by their selfish non-self-sacrificing behaviour? (We just had another solstice, and still no rapture.) Surely nobody could dismiss that eventuality. Perhaps zenith-nadir, since he seems to think that fundamentalism in the Malay Peninsula precludes fundamentalism in the West.

War on Fundamentalism : I'm for it.
 

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