The usual Kevin election post.

[WildCat]

Has any real newspaper in the entire USA done a expose on the election fraud in Ohio?

There's a journalism career to be made (ala Woodward and Bernstein did w/ Watergate) by showing massive election fraud in Ohio. And yet, only Green Party bloggers seem interested. I wonder why?

 

[Ion]

No, I said here that:

I always said it was just a few.

So, you are either lieing or stupid or both, and I proved it.

Typical stupid woo-woo eurotrash idiot.

No kidding...

Considering:

The Democrats aren't crying fraud...Are there any by a real newspaper?...

to which I correctly responded here:

They aren't?

Because today's The San Diego Union Tribune reads in page A6 under 'House Democrats try to snarl Ohio count':

"...House Democrats are trying to enlist California Sen. Barbara Boxer as part of a...effort to snarl President Bush's formal re-election by preventing Congress from counting Ohio's pivotal votes..."

Do they have electricity now in the swamp where you live over there in Chicago?

 

[Ion]

So, you are now claiming that the media doing the exit polls are in on the conspiracy?

Mitofski -the pollster- and the media that buried the article I cited in page A6, yes.

The media got before on conspiracy when supporting Bush's 'knowledge' of WMDs in Iraq and his drive for war, with baloney 'Support our troops', 'patriotism', 'freedom fries'.
But The New York Times apologized about three months ago for getting into Bush's bandwagon of 'knowledge' of WMDs in Iraq.

 

[Ion]

...
PS: Can you let me in on some of your jewish scams? I could use a few bucks.

See?

That's America.

Lawyer is a 'success' within these values.

There is a lot of room in US for weak minded faith in superstition and 'God', for greedy money, and for being a hick.

While substantial material work, from unskilled labor to skilled science and technology, is done by immigrants.

Banana country, living on the crutches that immigrants build.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Nothing is in writing and daybreak is a long way away, but it appeared all but certain in early evening Wednesday that House Democrats had secured the support of up to half a dozen Senators to formally challenge the Electoral College slate from Ohio, when the votes are opened before a joint session of Congress tomorrow.

Congressional sources tell this reporter that the house half of the written objection — which has the declared support of more than a dozen Representatives — is expected to be signed by Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones of Ohio. Republican leadership expects the Senate signatory to be Barbara Boxer of California, but this has not yet been formalized. The Majority is also worried about the possible absence of many of its members in both houses, and the prospect that a quorum might not be achieved, leading the process into uncharted, albeit not very threatening, constitutional grounds. There is a mathematical, if not practical, chance that the ratification of the Electoral College vote could be delayed past tomorrow.

As it is, a written challenge would require the joint session to suspend for several hours, during which the Senate and the House would meet separately and debate the merits of the objection.

The ad hoc group formed by Representative John Conyers of Michigan has also today published its staff report, concluding that before, during, and after the election in Ohio, many state laws may have been broken, in every area ranging from the allocation of voting machines, election day "anomalies," and the recount. It recommended a formal Congressional inquiry, and additional legislation to reform voting laws.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

As an aside, I say kudos to Kevin_Lowe for his contributions to this thread.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

See?

That's America.

Lawyer is a 'success' within these values.

There is a lot of room in US for weak minded faith in superstition and 'God', for greedy money, and for being a hick.

While substantial material work, from unskilled labor to skilled science and technology, is done by immigrants.

Banana country, living on the crutches that immigrants build.

Yes, we let immigrants like you do the work while we kick back and chill.

Now back to work, boy. Or I'll call the INS.

 

[Ion]

Yes, we let immigrants like you do the work...
...

"...we...", Scrotchy?

You are not in "...we...", you are outside of "...we...", I displace you and your ilk.

 

[Ion]

As an aside, I say kudos to Kevin_Lowe for his contributions to this thread.

So there are half a dozen Senators available to challenge the Ohio's vote, but maybe from amongst them Barbara Boxer will be the signatory.

 

[varwoche]

The problem is that the means for fraud are now well documented in Ohio, as are individual instances of fairly startling "irregularities" entirely consistent with fraud, and the recount that was meant to sort this out was squirrelled so that only a tiny fraction of the votes were ever actually counted a second time. Those are facts that seem to me to be cause for serious concern, whatever the stereotypes and/or motives you choose to attribute to some of the people stating those facts.

I don't see compelling evidence that fraud/mistakes occured to an extent that vaguely threaten the outcome. (Nor, to be fair, have I researched the topic to the extent you have.) That said, thank you for documenting some of the serious problems with electronic voting.

It is clear to me that some (most? all?) of the electronic machines are subject to tampering with relative ease. My major concerns in brief:
- non open source code
- lack of audit trail
- flimsy security

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

But there's no evidence of that in the document linked to above. For your scenario to be true, the poll answers would have had to be fudged. Likely meaning that the pollsters were in on the massive conspiracy, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a loon like Ion believes that.

Kevin's not a loon, he's just naive.

Sorry about not catching this one earlier. Ion had basically the right idea in this instance - between 3pm and midnight on election day, in varying places, the media was using "exit poll data" that was actually a mixture of exit poll data and incoming reports of the actual votes.

This is extremely sensible if you want to make a good guess at the election's outcome. It's just not much good for detecting fraud. Some people have claimed this was evidence of a media conspiracy but that's not a view I personally subscribe to. At the time of the election as far as I can tell the only people who even considered fraud on the scale of the exit poll discrepancies conceivable were the handful of slashdotters and bbvers who had been following the electronic voting issue.

This was all cleared up in the few days following the election.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

There's a journalism career to be made (ala Woodward and Bernstein did w/ Watergate) by showing massive election fraud in Ohio. And yet, only Green Party bloggers seem interested. I wonder why?

Check that wiki link I gave earlier - a variety of mainstream news sources have at least recognised the issue, and from memory one of the Ohio newspapers has been covering the issue reasonably well.

A few journalists like Olbermann are covering the issue, and maybe in time they will be remembered in the same way W&B are... or of course maybe not.

 

[WildCat]

Check that wiki link I gave earlier - a variety of mainstream news sources have at least recognised the issue, and from memory one of the Ohio newspapers has been covering the issue reasonably well.

A few journalists like Olbermann are covering the issue, and maybe in time they will be remembered in the same way W&B are... or of course maybe not.

Of course the media is covering the issue. But where is the investigative reporting? Where are the leaked documents? Where are the "high placed sources" leaking information?

Or is this the best kept massive conspiracy since the moon landing hoax?

 

[WildCat]

So there are half a dozen Senators available to challenge the Ohio's vote, but maybe from amongst them Barbara Boxer will be the signatory.

Really? Maybe? Might? Could?

Mr. Genius Imported Scientist, doesn't this really mean that as of now there are no Democratic Senators willing to challenge the vote, including John Kerry himself? And of 200 House Democrats there are exactly 23 who have joined Conyers? This is all they could get to score cheap political points during one of the most partisan moments in political memory?

 

[WildCat]

Mitofski -the pollster- and the media that buried the article I cited in page A6, yes.

The media got before on conspiracy when supporting Bush's 'knowledge' of WMDs in Iraq and his drive for war, with baloney 'Support our troops', 'patriotism', 'freedom fries'.
But The New York Times apologized about three months ago for getting into Bush's bandwagon of 'knowledge' of WMDs in Iraq.

See? I told you that Ion was a loon who would push the "media pollsters are involved in the conspiracy" theory.

Ion, whatever you're doing in this country, it isn't science.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Of course the media is covering the issue. But where is the investigative reporting? Where are the leaked documents? Where are the "high placed sources" leaking information?

Or is this the best kept massive conspiracy since the moon landing hoax?

I have two observations.

The first is that if an issue isn't being widely reported in the mainstream media that is a reason for engaging the skeptical functions. It's not an excuse not to think at all, though. There are facts and analyses available, and it's just laziness to assume that if CNN hasn't said it's true that there is nothing worth examining. If all you are doing is dingling a little alarm bell, fair enough.

The second is that it took, what, two years for Watergate to come out? From the actual break-in until the whole story, smoking guns and all, was on the table for public examination. That's with Deep Throat and all.

It's been two months since the election, give or take, and we haven't had a convenient insider leaking to the media to speed things along.

I was also reminded by the recent death of Webb that there was an unhealthy lag between the first "outing" of the CIA for running drugs into the USA, and the further investigations that proved the original claims to be substantially correct.

These things have taken time before. If this is a genuine scandal brewing rather than a beat-up, it could easily take as long as Watergate or the Contra business to fully develop.

 

[Skeptic]

And I see that Eurotrash like yourself still is number 1 in anti-semitism.

Sorry for jumping in front of you on that one, Skeptic. I just wanted to quote the jackass before he edited it out.

Could be, Wildcat, could be... but in "Ion"'s case, he also claims to be "doing science" in the USA and to speak four languages, be a champion swimmer, etc., etc. And it's rather obvious that he is none of the above. I think the "dirty jew" rant is merely final proof that he is actually a troll who doesn't (necessarily) believe a word he's saying, but just wants to cause fights. Don't take the guy too seriously.

 

[Skeptic]

These things have taken time before. If this is a genuine scandal brewing rather than a beat-up, it could easily take as long as Watergate or the Contra business to fully develop.

Indeed so; but you're now sounding like the flat-earther who says, "Oh well, it took hundreds of years to realize Galileo was correct".

You see the logical fallacy here, don't you? For every rumor of political fraud with no current evidence that eventually turns out to be true because the evidence was suppressed, there are a zillion rumors of political fraud with no current evidence of political fraud that turn out to be nonsense because there WAS no evidence. They laughed at Galileo, but they also laughed at creationists. Doesn't mean they're correct, you know.

So, what have you got to show us--apart from the pious hope that we cannot disprove that somewhere, sometime in the indefinite future, in some way, maybe, perhaps, some evidence "proving" the Ohio elections were a fraud might surface?

There are facts and analyses available, and it's just laziness to assume that if CNN hasn't said it's true that there is nothing worth examining.

Indeed so. But the point here is different. It is not merely that the mainstream media doesn't report it.

It is that very powerful people (both in the media and in the Democratic party), with much better access to the facts, and with much more riding on having Kerry win than you or I, did NOT consider it worth their while to claim there was a conspiracy or fraud in the Ohio elections.

If they don't consider it a fraud, why should you?

 

[Ion]

Could be, Wildcat, could be... but in "Ion"'s case, he also claims to be "doing science" in the USA and to speak four languages, be a champion swimmer, etc., etc. And it's rather obvious that he is none of the above.
...

It is obvious that I am none of the above?

Try me.

Try my knowledge and supporting data in each claim I made about what I do.

We agree I said that in US I do:

1.) science;

2.) speak four languages, and English is third down on the list;

3.) train and race with Olympic swimmers, one being a 2004 Olympic gold medalist.

Go ahead.

 

[Ion]

Really? Maybe? Might? Could?

Mr. Genius Imported Scientist, doesn't this really mean that as of now there are no Democratic Senators willing to challenge the vote, including John Kerry himself?...
...

There is no more "Really? Maybe? Might? Could?...", Senator Boxer officially signed the start of the fight that disputes the Ohio vote.

The fight is on.

 

[Skeptic]

See? I told you that Ion was a loon who would push the "media pollsters are involved in the conspiracy" theory.

Ion, whatever you're doing in this country, it isn't science.

Well, he's probably making it all up as a troll, but if he IS real, I'm beginning to think he is "doing science" in the same way a lab rat is "doing science": he was brought over as a rare specimen with a curious mental illness for others to study...